By the very talented Carlos Latuff.Note that also earlier today, Israel shot at another UN school - this time in the Shati2 camp.
It murdered three Palestinians.
So Israel is joining the ranks of the countries and organisations that kill refugees seeking shelter in UN premises:
Serbia, and, euh, Israel, Burundian Hutu rebels, the Lebanese Kataeb and Israel, Sudanese refugees, and, ehemm, Israel.
I find it hard to withhold a bitter laugh.
So, justifications we'll be hearing today?
a) Mistake! I love it when one day it's 'superbly well targeted strategic strikes', and the next it's an 'oops'.
These were tank shells. Not a bomb hit from a ship 15 km away: it's the ground invasion, which was supposed to be more 'meticulous'. It was a tank inside of Gaza, standing in front of the school. True, mortar can be inaccurate - but not at that range.
No mistakes here. UN schools clearly raise UN flags - several of them, the door/fence usually has big painted UN insignia.
b) Terrorists were hiding in there! Of course! I mean, it is UN premises, and there were 350 refugees hiding from the shelling. No uniforms. How on earth could they assume that?
And, honestly, even if. Because of a suspicion, it's okay to shell 350 civilians on UN premises?
c) They shot at us! To be more precise:
"Initial checks ... show that from inside the school mortars were fired at Israeli forces," a (IDF) spokesman said. "In response, the forces fired a number of mortar rounds into the area." Right.
An uncorroborated claim, but a blanket justification, which we'll hear a lot I'm sure. This one is a tad harder to counter!
Here's a good way though: Give me proof. No, none? Can the UN, a bystander, a third-country satellite (because we all remember the US super-duper-infrared maps of Iraq's "mobile nuclear labs" in 2003..) your mom, confirm it?
And, seriously. If people were indeed cramming inside a location to avoid being shot at - would they really allow someone to fire mortars at the tanks in sight? The irrationality assumption only goes that far...
d) Terrorists to be! If someone in Israel had the guts to say that they bombed a school because the children hiding inside would've become terrorists, I'd respect their honesty. But it's one of those things that many Israelis think but don't say - this mentality of "A good Arab is a dead Arab". For their own sake, really. Because Palestinians will be their neighbours (or, in another version, their co-citizens). Embedding hatred for the Palestinians in their children's hearts is both sad - and counterproductive.
It murdered three Palestinians.
So Israel is joining the ranks of the countries and organisations that kill refugees seeking shelter in UN premises:
Serbia, and, euh, Israel, Burundian Hutu rebels, the Lebanese Kataeb and Israel, Sudanese refugees, and, ehemm, Israel.
I find it hard to withhold a bitter laugh.
So, justifications we'll be hearing today?
a) Mistake! I love it when one day it's 'superbly well targeted strategic strikes', and the next it's an 'oops'.
These were tank shells. Not a bomb hit from a ship 15 km away: it's the ground invasion, which was supposed to be more 'meticulous'. It was a tank inside of Gaza, standing in front of the school. True, mortar can be inaccurate - but not at that range.
No mistakes here. UN schools clearly raise UN flags - several of them, the door/fence usually has big painted UN insignia.
b) Terrorists were hiding in there! Of course! I mean, it is UN premises, and there were 350 refugees hiding from the shelling. No uniforms. How on earth could they assume that?
And, honestly, even if. Because of a suspicion, it's okay to shell 350 civilians on UN premises?
c) They shot at us! To be more precise:
"Initial checks ... show that from inside the school mortars were fired at Israeli forces," a (IDF) spokesman said. "In response, the forces fired a number of mortar rounds into the area." Right.
An uncorroborated claim, but a blanket justification, which we'll hear a lot I'm sure. This one is a tad harder to counter!
Here's a good way though: Give me proof. No, none? Can the UN, a bystander, a third-country satellite (because we all remember the US super-duper-infrared maps of Iraq's "mobile nuclear labs" in 2003..) your mom, confirm it?
And, seriously. If people were indeed cramming inside a location to avoid being shot at - would they really allow someone to fire mortars at the tanks in sight? The irrationality assumption only goes that far...
d) Terrorists to be! If someone in Israel had the guts to say that they bombed a school because the children hiding inside would've become terrorists, I'd respect their honesty. But it's one of those things that many Israelis think but don't say - this mentality of "A good Arab is a dead Arab". For their own sake, really. Because Palestinians will be their neighbours (or, in another version, their co-citizens). Embedding hatred for the Palestinians in their children's hearts is both sad - and counterproductive.
42 comments:
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=42157
mortar fire from unrwa school in gaza in 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI
You want to convince me with an old video - irrelevant - and a quote from the Israeli army - the perpetrator?
Really?
1- What is worth mentioning that the UNRWA school is around 1.5KM from where the clashes are taking place? I am sure Hamas could have better positions to shoot from.
2-The UNRWA doesn't allow anyone to shoot from within or use its facilities in any confrontation. They try to remain as unbiased as possible.
3-I wish Israel shows the footage of the militants who were firing from within the school since they have IDF Fighting falcons monitoring every single step in the Gaza strip. They will not, bc such thing D.N.E (DOES NOT EXIST).
4- I have been telling my mother yesterday I am one hundred percent sure that Israel would shoot them today. As they already have an experience in targetting people taking refuge in UN facilities.
GAZA CITY, Gaza - Israeli mortar shells exploded Tuesday near a U.N. school in Gaza that was sheltering hundreds of people displaced by Israel's onslaught against Hamas militants, killing at least 30 Palestinians, tearing bodies apart and staining streets with blood.
Israel's military said its shelling — the deadliest single episode since Israeli ground forces invaded Gaza Saturday — was a response to mortar fire from within the school and said Hamas militants were using civilians as cover.
Two residents of the area who spoke by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.
The above report was from the nest of zionists - the associated press.
Here is some more Zionist propaganda from Hamas officials:
RAFAH, Gaza Strip, May 5 (Reuters) - By day, Awad al-Qiq was a respected science teacher and headmaster at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip. By night, Palestinian militants say, he built rockets for Islamic Jihad.
The Israeli air strike that killed the 33-year-old last week also laid bare his apparent double life and embarrassed a U.N. agency which has long had to rebuff Israeli accusations that it has aided and abetted guerrillas fighting the Jewish state.
In interviews with Reuters, students and colleagues, as well as U.N. officials, denied any knowledge of Qiq's work with explosives. And his family denied he had any militant links at all, despite a profusion of Islamic Jihad posters at his home.
But militant leaders allied to the enclave's ruling Hamas group hailed him as a martyr who led Islamic Jihad's "engineering unit" -- its bomb makers. They fired a salvo of improvised rockets into Israel in response to his death.
1. You could actually say the universe is a Zionist plan, if you really concentrate.
Really, Reuters are Zionists? tell them, I'm sure they'll hang you on a tree faster than the Iranians...
2. I'm not saying that the bombing of the school was justified - I'm the last to know what happened there - but to say UNRWA is unbiased is a pure joke. Sure, they don't go throwing rocks at Israelis, but believe me, I spent enough time near their main base in Jerusalem to see their so called "love" for Israelis.
The very existence of UNRWA makes the UN very biased in their involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and not neutral as the UN is supposed to be.
Moreover, 2 little nice facts about the so called neutral UN:
1. Did you know that the only people in the world having a whole UN organization just for their purposes are the Palestinians? make you wonder again why bosnians, sudanians, or africans in general have redder blood in the eyes of the UN...
2. did you know the UN is so democratic that It's regulations say that every country on earth can be a member of the security council. Oh, sorry, the full regulations say all contries except one.
Which ? you Guess.
Right. Israel is the only country in the world that is suppressed from sitting in the security council right from the start -the time of its joining (1950). Aye, aren't they a merry democratic bunch...
Jonathan, Bombed Beer Sheva.
OH right! the same UN which gave you 56% of the land when you had less than 10% of the land.
The UN which you have implemented none of its resolutions. I wonder how did your neighbours bother you while being in Jerusalem ? You could have easily called the police.
Anonymous is correct. These are the reports indeed.
By IBRAHIM BARZAK and JASON KEYSER, Associated Press Writers Ibrahim Barzak And Jason Keyser, Associated Press Writers - 2 hrs 35 mins ago
Israel's military said its shelling at the school — the deadliest single episode since Israeli ground forces invaded Gaza on Saturday after a week of air bombardment — was a response to mortar fire from within the school and said Hamas militants were using civilians as cover.
Two residents of the area who spoke with The Associated Press by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.
Source
If AP received phone calls from someone, this doesn't necessarily mean this person resides in Gaza strip or anywhere in Palestine. If he/she infact did, the caller could have been recruited by the IDF to do so. In addition, the UN has cleared stated that there wasn't any militant inside. The UN has already given the IDF the coordinates of their establishments in the Gaza strip and stated clearly that it is a refuge for the people who were forced to leave their house, making them protected under the Geneva Convention. Ehhhhh..............
A short conclusion from a German who is not directly affected.
a) I am Israeli, and I am used for a few years to live with my country being under permanent attack by rockets from a neighbouring country. Friends and relatives of me are directly concerned, me as well, and if it is only for the lack of safety.
My government decides to end this situation and strikes back with all its military power (of course we now it's not all - Israel could do MUCH more harm if intended so).
A logical consequence of that is the so-called collateral damage - dying innocent civilians, because the rockets are coming from residential areas and thats obviously not regarded by the armee.
I cannot approve what they are doing, but what alternative is there? I do not see any, so I support the action.
b) I am Palestinian, and I am used for a few years to live with the forced isolation of my countrys and further resprisals by a occupying power. Friends and relatives of me are directly concerned, me as well, and if it is only for the lack of safety.
My government, the Hamas, decides to end that and believes they can achieve that by sending rockets over the border.
A logical consequence of that are dying civilians, but they are anyways intended to be killed.
I tell you, if I would see someone sending a rocket from my area, if would not hesitate to tie him on that and wish a good journey.
Khaled said...
If AP received phone calls from someone, this doesn't necessarily mean this person resides in Gaza strip or anywhere in Palestine.
If AP says that it talked to local residents by phone this does not necessarily mean that it was called by rather that it was calling residents in the vicinity of the place. I like by the way this the UN gave the IDF the coordinates. I want to see the UN giving such coordinates to any Arab army in the region.
After a week of heavy fighting in the most densely populated area of the world, the IDF shelled by mistake a school which was used by militants as a cover to shoot mortars from a nearby street. Yes, a great proof indeed that the IDF is deliberately targeting civilians. Never mind that the same school was already used in the past for the same purpose which was filmed from one of the drones. I can imagine how disappointed the Arabs were in the first days of the conflict when civilians accounted for barely 20% of the casualties. At least now they finally got something that can keep them happy.
What good does "confirming it" do--AP, one of whose writers is an Arabic-speaking reporter who called around, DID confirm that, and folks like Khaled won't believe it anyway....if the IDF produced a film tomorrow, Khaled would no doubt claim it was fake...all of which misses the point. Hamas holds the key to the end of this war--and today they announced they don't want to end the war, that they will NEVER cease their "resistance" (that's rocket-fire, car bombs and suicide bombers against Israelis) --- and why should they? The Hamasnikim still alive are hunkered down in bunkers letting the civilians take the brunt of the war. Just like they made Israeli civilians take the brunt of their "resistance" -- there are no military facilities in Sderot.
BTW, Khaled's remark that "the same UN which gave you 56% of the land when you had less than 10% of the land." is something of a misstatement which no doubt arises from a lack of knowledge of Turkish land law. NO ONE owned much of the land, Arab or Jew -- Turkish law required that the land be registered in TABU and taxes paid. Lots of folks didn't bother. If it wasn't in TABU, it was officially "Crown Land" -- and the British kept that system under the Mandate. So when they partitioned the land, most of that 56% Khaled is referring to was "Crown Land" (and the Palestinian section had an enormous percentage that was also "Crown Land")and got handed over to the respective parties as "State Land" meaning it belonged to the government. It didn't matter if a Jewish family had been growing grapes on the acreage for three generations, or if an Arab family had been growing oranges for three generations---if those families hadn't registered the land in TABU annually and paid the taxes, the land automatically reverted to the State. One of the most sensible things Yasser Arafat did for the Palestinians was get the land registry going and get people to register their land in TABU (and of course the PA got the taxes, but it still established ownership).
Besides, what's the gripe: the 56% of State Land the British/UN gave us was mostly a malarial coastal strip that was sand dunes, a malarial swamp in the north, and the Negev, which was rock and sand dunes. The Palestinians got the best land in the Partition, except for the Jezreel.
There is a rumor of cease-fire, despite Hamas's declaration of never-no-ceasefire, ever! If you're religious, pray for peace; if you're just a humanist, hope for it.
Regarding the supposed AP Reports that exempt Israel from its responsibility:
"In the single deadliest strike of the current Gaza offensive, at least 39 Palestinians were killed and 55 wounded Tuesday when Israeli mortar shells hit near a U.N. school where hundreds of civilians had sought refuge from the fighting. Israel said Hamas militants had fired mortar shells from outside the school, drawing return fire."
Even Israel says it was OUTSIDE the school. How some people insist it was inside is beyond me.
And, seriously, even if. Tank fire on a school? How fucked-up do you have to be to make a call like that?
So much for the purity of arms of Tsahal - "pure" as a Thai whore, probably.
(apologies to all Thai whores out there! :)
Ceasefire: Eh. Will be like in Lebanon: when Israel has had enough, it will usher to the US and the UK - the only two countries, if you recall, to reject a cease-fire in 2006 for nearly a month - and will allow for a 'ceasefire'.
I project that to happen - the day after the Israeli elections! :)
Nobody - your last insult was uncalled for.
Jonathan - I hope all's well in your town. Status update, perhaps?
Aliyah06 - Your comment on 'land ownership' goes against the very common story that "Jews bought most of the land from absentee Arab owners so Israel was declared on Jewish-owned land" and the like.
So which one is it? Belonged to pre-State Jewish immigrants, didn't belong to anyone?
Land titling a complex development issue. Until now, most countries in East Africa struggle with the question.
Does that give anyone to go and establish a country there?
Nope.
On the UN:
The fact remains that Israel is in every bit a UN baby. From its establishment (UNGA/1947/181!), to the gazillion resolutions that were never implemented. (and which were never, NEVER (for Security Council resolution) passed under Chapter 7 of the Charter, which involves the UN taking action to implement its resolutions. Unlike, for example, Iraq, where all resolutions regarding it were passed under chapter 7, giving teeth - and hence weight - to the word of the Organisation.
Proves that, the UN was never serious about even blaming Israel for anything it has done.
When the UN suggests a 'fact-finding mission' (not even an investigation! Can you be any more wimpish than that??), Israel promptly raises the middle finger: the UN sits quietly.
Every time.
Last time was 3 weeks ago, when UN special investigator on the Palestinian Territories Richard Falk was DEPORTED from Ben Gurion upon arrival.
Don't get me started on the UN thing.
OK--I'm looking forward to coffee and a long, lengthy chat--next time in East Jerusalem?
Actually, though, Israel is a League of Nations baby--the UN simply inherited the issue.
The problem with sound-bytes is that they don't give detail or context. The land that was partitioned to be Israel had a demographic majority of Jews; the land that was partitioned to be Palestine had a demographic majority of Arabs. No one at the UN contemplated transfer of populations--the idea was that each state would have a minority population of either Jews or Arabs. OWNED Jewish land under the Brits and Ottomans was purchased, registered and added to the tax rolls. Yes, the Jews bought a great deal of land from Arab landowners and sometimes bought it twice--from the first guy who said "That's my land" and then again from the second guy who said, "You're trespassing, I don't care who you paid, it's MY land."
It's not two different narratives here--of the lands partitioned to be a Jewish state, something like 10-17% was registered in TABU by Jews...but note that Palestinians owned an equally small share in TABU (less than 5% or something). This is because of the Turkish law that states if you didn't pay your taxes and register annually, the land reverted to the State!
My point was that Khaled and other throw this statistic out as an argument/sound-byte without understanding how the law works here. The majority of agricultural land on which the Jews sat was registered in TABU (can't speak for city homes--until near the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Jews weren't allowed to own homes in Jerusalem--never mind that you've been here since 1400, you still have to pay rent to a Moslem owner). So vast swathes of the land (especially the less-than-desiraable parts, like the Negev, which was some huge percentage of the Jewish portion of the partition, I want to say like 60%, or thereeabouts) were NOT purchased, not registered in TABU--something like 70% of the land in the Jewish part of the partition was not owned by Arabs, but was "State Land" or "Crown Land" as the Brits liked to call it. The actual ownership stats are something like 10% owned and registered in TABU by Jews; something like 4% owned and registered in TABU by Arabs.
Remember that in '48 the Brits and UN didn't count Jerusalem at all in this calculus; that people (both Jewish and Arab) oftentimes lived in homes for generations without really legally "owning" the land or property because of this tax-and-registration requirement.
My point is: Khlaled's 'statistics' are highly misleading because they are simplistic--and I understand he doesn't mean it that way, but gets it off the internet because I've heard this same sound-byte (hence I went and read up on it.)
Gotta run--its a workday, darn it!
Even Israel says it was OUTSIDE the school. How some people insist it was inside is beyond me.
And, seriously, even if. Tank fire on a school? How fucked-up do you have to be to make a call like that?
So much for the purity of arms of Tsahal - "pure" as a Thai whore, probably.
(apologies to all Thai whores out there! :)
This is a war. When you have thousands of soldiers firing hundreds of shells, mistakes happen. Yes, wars suck. Don't start them and you will be just fine.
Aliyah almost everything that you have introduced were the result of misconceptions that you posses.
If the land wasn't registered in the Tabu, this doesn't mean it is owned by the state.
In 1858 the Ottoman Authority introduced the law of tabu to establish rights of land ownership. Landowners were instructed to have their property inscribed in the land register. The tabu was resisted by the fellahin. They saw a threat to their community in registering their land for two main reasons: 1) the cultivated fields were classified as ardh ameriyeh (the land of the emirate) and were taxed, so owners of registered fertile land were forced to pay tax on it; 2) data from the land register were used by the Turkish Army for the purpose of the draft. Owners of registered lands were often drafted to fight with the Turkish Army in Russia.
Until now, you will find most of the palestinian land in east Jerusalem unregistered in the Tabu.
My point is: ALIYAH06's 'statistics' are highly misleading because they are simplistic--and I understand he doesn't mean it that way, but gets it off the internet because I've heard this same sound-byte (hence I went and read up on it.)
Ok, sorry if I sound like a total bitch, but -
1. What does it matter whether it's 40+ at once, or scattered among 10 bombs? Dead is dead and it's a tragedy either way.
2. What does the fact that is was a school have anything to do with that? Please tell me the kids in Gaza aren't going to school these days... I know the ones on the Israeli side are instructed to stay at home. Good thing too, as Hamas has managed to get direct hits at two kindergartens already. I guess using the same line of thinking as them, Israel should have told kids to go to school and celebrate the "victory" in the media of having 30 toddlers hurt?
Now, to the point. Guys, you don't know much about how the military operation works. I don't want to get into details, but trust me, there is nothing deliberate - nobody wants to hurt civilians. It's considered a failure in the IDF when you hurt civilians - I'm talking about the soldier level here.
When you have troops in there, and they are fired at, you need to end the source of fire. You don't have a lot of options - if you don't want your own people killed (and I apologize for people here wanting their soldiers to come back home alive). When you fire back, there's a range that gets affected - it's not just one square meter where the launchers of the mortars were standing. They know it too.
Bottom line, Hamas were shooting from where they new civilians would be put in the line of fire. Do they do this deliberately, cold-bloodedly wanting their own civilians hurt to score more points in the media? I don't know, honestly. I really really hope not.
Such incidents have nothing to do with UN decisions in 1948 or anything like that. This is pure military stuff. War gets very ugly when you fight it in a densely populated area.
I wonder whether this UN truck driver was firing at the israel troops too.
Israeli Mom: "Now, to the point. Guys, you don't know much about how the military operation works. I don't want to get into details, but trust me, there is nothing deliberate - nobody wants to hurt civilians." ~ that was incredibly funny.
Another reference
Khaled
So what? It was already explained to you that a massive logistics involved in such a military operation makes it impossible to avoid accidents. But the funniest thing of this all is that Israel is the only army in the region that can fight in such a densely populated urban area and keep the ratio of dead enemy fighters to civilians at 1:1 or even 5:1 as it was before the ground invasion. No Arab army is even technically capable of doing this. Never mind that whenever Arabs fought each other, they did not even try to avoid civilian casualties. Many times their tactic was to deliberately inflict them as much as they can.
In fact, this is precisely what Hamas and Hezbollah are doing. If Israel killed a couple of hundreds of Palestinian civilians, this is because it failed to kill less. If Hamas and Hezbollah killed a couple of dozens of Israeli civilians this is because they failed to kill more.
Khaled is correct about the resistance and the draft aspects of the land ownership--nonetheless, it meant that when the Partition happened, lands that might have been in one's possession were legally in the possession of the State. And I'm a "she" not a "he" btw...and if I were a Palestinian living in East Jerusalem, I would hustle down to some land office, any land office, and register my property. Now.
Mohamed--if we fired on our own troops in what we thought was an empty building, what makes firing on a school building thought to be empty, next to a Hamasnik firing post, so unbelievable?
Khaled--you'll be able to ask the UNWRA driver's colleagues, who were evacuated by IDF personnel after being wounded and are being treated at Ashkelon's Barzilai Hospital...and the MDA medic who treated them on the way to the hospital said they were shot by Hamas snipers. Hey, maybe the driver belonged to Fatah?
While we're talking about outrages, where is the humanitarian outrage over PFLP missiles being shot into an old-age home up north? Not a peep from the NGOs or MSM, of course. Palestinian civilians get coverage, Israeli civilians get ignored.
Maybe you could ask your Palestinian contacts why, during the 3 hour "humanitarian cease-fire," Hamas continued to launch rockets into Israel?
If Hamas can't honor a three-hour truce for the benefit of the people they've put in harm's way, what makes you think we should trust any promises about any cease-fire in the future?
UN, Red Cross curtail Gaza aid, criticize Israel. It is time to criticize your government and your army. We aren't blood thirsty. And I hope that neither the Israel people nor the palestinian people suffer anymore.
I am truly surprised from the interviews that the israeli TV have done with the troops. Some of them said: We want to swim in Gaza, others said we want to kill them all!!Others said that we cannot get rid of Hamas and therefore everytime a rocket is fired from Gaza we should demolish his house and all his neighbour houses WTF! What type of mentality do they posses? Really!!!
The people in Sderot have 15 seconds to find a shelter and have a siren that would alert them earlier. The people in Gaza have ZERO SECONDS NO SHELTER NO FOOD NO ELECTRICITY and have 360 KM2 of land to run into.
I believe there was some kind of screwup here. Either there was bad intelligence -- and the Israelis didn't know about the number of civilians holed up in the school -- or there was a bad decision, because even if there was some mortar fire coming the vicinity of the school, opening fire with tanks at school full of people trying to escape the danger is a bad idea. Obviously, not knowing the full situation, not knowing exactly what was going through the mind of the commander, it's hard to say whether the decision was immoral or just stupid. But barring something I don't see here, it was not a justifiable action.
Obviously Israel screwed up and bombed the UN school especially when the UNWRA spokesperson, Christopher Gunness, has said that the Israeli military were given the Coordinates of all of the UN schools. He said that they dispute 99% that anyone was firing from the school. Have been listening to him on NPR Democracy Now for the last 3 days.
And I tend to believe him since he goes out of his way not to put blame on anyone, just pointing out the humanitarian needs in Gaza!
The UN, one of the biggest employers of Palestinians in Gaza (UNWRA staff is something like 98% Palestinian) is of course going to say Hamas fighters are not at fault. This is the same UNWRA who shut up the family of the UN school headmaster who was a rocket maker and head of an Islamic Jihad rocket unit--they forced the family to take down the "martyr" posters and directed them to say nothing to the press in order to have plausable deniability.
You accuse Israelis of being credulous in believing our own press. Anyone who believes what's coming out of UNWRA spokesmen these days, who act solely to give Hamas legitimate 'coverage', is pretty credulous also.
Gideon Levy? Please! This is a guy who, when I emailed him and pointed out that something in his story couldn't be true because of police procedure, and why didn't he interview the cops, wrote back to me and told me that "truth wasn't important," only getting the Palestinian narrative out was important.
Lisa Goldman, Haim Watzman and Gershom Gorenburg have excellent coverage. I wish more people would read them as they are all excellent writers and catch the conflicted feelings of Israelis as well.
Let's see, CNN's Rick Sanchez asserts that Israel broke the ceasefire by killing six Gazans on November 6th? Think that's a Palestinian talking point because I've seen it already on all the Palestinian blogs and press handouts....besides being headlined in The Guardian on 11/5/08, so this isnt' "new" news....The Times also covered it but didn't omit the reason, as the Guardian did: "A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded. The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier - as it did in the summer of 2006."
Remember Gilad Shalit?
Or is it your position that a 250 metre tunnel dug up to the Israeli border should be ignored?
Along with the flurry of missiles that continued to fly into Israel during the "cease-fire?"
Since Hamas & Co. never really stopped firing missiles and mortars into Israel, and continued kidnapping/terror attempts, why are the Palestinians outraged that Israel finally responded militarily to what has been pretty much ceaseless Palestinian aggression?
Halla said...
Obviously Israel screwed up and bombed the UN school especially when the UNWRA spokesperson, Christopher Gunness, has said that the Israeli military were given the Coordinates of all of the UN schools. He said that they dispute 99% that anyone was firing from the school. Have been listening to him on NPR Democracy Now for the last 3 days.
And I tend to believe him since he goes out of his way not to put blame on anyone, just pointing out the humanitarian needs in Gaza!
Yes, sure. All Israeli soldiers are walking around with coordinates of UN and PA schools. And when fired upon with mortars or something they immediately call upon the command and start checking out the trajectory of mortars and how they relate to various coordinates provided by the UNRWA (in fact they often do!!!). But I am not surprised by such expectations from the IDF, this is sure how the Arab armies are trained to operate
:D :D
There is a fundamental note here. Israel is the occupier; Palestine is the occupied.
There is no parity.
There is no he pinched me first.
(or was planning on pinching me).
And despite all this, despite the fact that every Palestinian death - and every Israeli death - is Israel's fault because of their occupation of the Palestinians, even when checking the timeline it becomes apparent that Israel is the first aggressor. Nearly constantly.
IM - no, school's out - the teachers are dead. :)
Hey, I want the soldiers to go home safe too - like RIGHT NOW!
Aliyah06 - There's no way they would've assumed the school building was empty - people were crammed inside and outside the building. No way they were invisible.
What do you mean, no coverage? There was nothing on the news 2 days ago than "someone bombed the north of Israel". Even the response of Israel came like 4 paragraphs down.
Of course most people working for UNRWA are Palestinians - UNRWA staff are teachers, doctors, etc. Obviously they'll be Palestinian. From there to conclude that it's pro-Hamas is an illogical mental jump.
Ah, yes, the Gilad Shalit argument. That just justifies everything!
Rev Barry - I agree. It is not a justifiable action. I wish everyone had your reasoning skills.
Nobody: the events unfolding, the bombing of 3 schools, of a hospital, the constant and deliberate targeting of ambulances, have proven beyond a doubt that the IDF cares little about what it is it shoots at. Actually I think they very much know. But hey. A good Arab is a dead Arab, right?
Nobody: the events unfolding, the bombing of 3 schools, of a hospital, the constant and deliberate targeting of ambulances, have proven beyond a doubt that the IDF cares little about what it is it shoots at. Actually I think they very much know. But hey. A good Arab is a dead Arab, right?
I would rather say that a good Arab is a smart Arab, but those are very hard to come by
:D :D
Well we're back to disagreeing about fundamentals...you say everything is Israel's fault because it is the "occupier." I say the Palestinians need to be responsible for waging pretty much ceaseless war, and that Gaza is not "occupied," and everyone has a right to control their own borders. Hamas wants open borders, then don't declare war, which is exactly what their platform is: back to the Three Noes of Khartoum, and jihad against Israel until the Jews are all dead and the land "liberated." Hamas will never do it, but the key to opening Gaza is to renounce their platform of genocide and conquest.
Nobody - And your strategy is to keep murdering people until the smart Arabs stand up from the crowd?
Lovely!
Seriously, Israel needs to snap out of this murderous spree.
Aliyah06 - Ok. I'll walk with you on this one, although you know that we disagree on the closing of my/your border.
How about, jeez, the sea border? (how do we say that?) The airspace? The control of imports into Gaza?
"Platform of genocide and conquest".. Details aside, Isn't it amazing how the very same arguments can be used by both sides sometimes? :)
Mo-ha-med said...
Nobody - And your strategy is to keep murdering people until the smart Arabs stand up from the crowd?
Lovely!
Seriously, Israel needs to snap out of this murderous spree.
No, honey. My strategy would have been to open the crossings on the other side and let all this Muslim Brothers shit to stream straight into Egypt :D :D. Given Mubarak's advanced age and debilitated health, the day is not far away when the local department of Muslim Brothers will take control of your country. Then thousands strong demonstrations in the West, the solidarity of the Arab street and protestations of various UN humanitarian organizations will become your best friends in your struggle for liberation from this shit. I wish your luck
:D :D
Why not talking about Egypt:
Muslim Arabs are the occupier; Copts are the occupied. Maybe a while ago, but historically correct.
Pff. Untrue, and irrelevant.
And no, we're not discussing this here.
Uh, with respect, Mohamed, by your definition, the United States is "occupying" Cuba....and I think Fidel would disagree with you. "Occupation" is a legal term defined (I think) in the Hague Convention. Embargoing/blockading Gaza isn't 'occupation' according to international law. If it were, then there is an argument that Israel was occupied by the Arab League from 1948-1967, when there was an embargo against it, when the airport was shelled on a regular basis by Jordanian artillery (as was Jerusalem from the heights of Gilo), when the Jordanians shot at Israeli cars traveling past Latrun to prevent movement from the coast to Jerusalem, when fedayeen were dispatched into Israel for incursions which killed civilians....we had no other land borders open to us, either.
We built a state despite this.
A discussion of legal terms is what it boils down to?
Very well.
In 1961 a sea embargo was enforced on Cuba, in the sense that the US was turning away ships - any ships - heading towards Cuba. And it was a particularly dumb thing to do - and such a violent act that it nearly caused an armed confrontation with the USSR.
And eventually, the US 'lost' the Cuban missile crisis, because its resolution meant that they were forced to remove their missiles in Turkey. (even though the subsequent Kroutchev's (sp?) resignation helped the Kennedy gov make it look like a victory).
Today the US doesn't fly to Cuba, or trade with it. (Americans going to Cuba fly to Canada or stop in Kingston, I believe). So, yeah, the US isn't occupying Cuba today.
And there is also an argument that Israel occupies Palestine from 1948 until today.
Sure you wanna go there? Frankly, I don't. So please don't go with the terrorist-settler rethoric of "Samaria and Judea are occupied" and the like.
Mo-ha-med said...
A discussion of legal terms is what it boils down to?
Very well.
In 1961 a sea embargo was enforced on Cuba, in the sense that the US was turning away ships - any ships - heading towards Cuba. And it was a particularly dumb thing to do - and such a violent act that it nearly caused an armed confrontation with the USSR.
You got it in reverse. The naval embargo was imposed after Soviet missiles were discovered on Cuba and the strategy worked. The missiles have been removed and anybody who has even a remote idea about Cuba knows that it's a poor and wretched nation and no danger for the US or anybody now. Of course the Arab perspective on this would be that Fidel Castro won a divine victory over the US, but for all practical purposes Fidel is a mega loser just as Hamas and the Palestinians are.
YOU got it in reverse. First these were missile ramps being installed in Cuba. They were not operative. Second, which you are attempting to hide - or simply ignore - is that the blockade FAILED. The crisis was resolved by secret diplomacy, with an agreement reached with the Soviets to remove the missile ramps in Cuba in exchange for the US removing its Jupiter missiles from Turkey and signing a no-invasion agreement (against Cuba).
Of course the Israeli perspective is that violence won and that negotiations never happened - after all, you are trained to both lie and to claim knowledge when you don't.
See, Nobody, there are always blood thirsty war supporters like yourself, even in leadership ranks (not to insinuate that you have any chance to get there really). In the US of 1961, they were smart enough to sideline the 'strike Cuba now'!! hot-heads and engage in secret negotiations with their enemies.
My hope is that there is someone in Israel who's lucid enough to sideline the likes of you and do what's best for Israel.
(NB - did I say 1961? I stand corrected - 1962).
It's irrelevant if they were operative or not. Nobody is going to sit idly waiting until real nuclear missiles would be put on ramps and aimed at his country. Just as Israel is not going to wait until an Islamic movement featuring in its official manifesto outright genocidal stuff against Jews and Israel smuggles enough weapons into Gaza so that we can have a "proportional" war.
Basically Israel does not need any particular pretext to invade Gaza and crash Hamas and any sane person will admit that if you have a government next door that is calling for your destruction and preparing for a war you'd better crash it now than later. However, Israel was very reluctant about going back into Gaza and was dragging its feet with doing what it logically should have done long ago. But all this was not enough for the Palestinians who for years were testing the limits of Israel's patience with daily rocket attacks.
Hamas can follow Cuba's example right now and agree to ceasefire and either promise to stop smuggling weapons or commit itself to a permanent peace deal with Israel. Israel will have no problem to reciprocate. Hamas refusal to do so and the verbal smokescreen the hopelessly confused Arabs like you are proving for this failure is just another prove that as a society you are no more than a bunch of a cannon fodder led to slaughter by demagogues or outright psychopaths.
you are proving = you are providing
Ooops---maybe it's the language barrier, since I don't speak Arabic (yet).
"So please don't go with the terrorist-settler rethoric of "Samaria and Judea are occupied" and the like."
That's not what I meant--sorry if it came out wrong. I was talking about pre-1967 Israel, within the Armistice Lines.
Post a Comment