It started as an argument during a discussion on the comments section of Lisa Goldman’s blog. My assertion is the following:
Israeli peace supporters are no longer. The average Israeli is more Lieberman than Rabin.
Isn’t s/he? There used to be a man in
They believed in him. I believed in him.
Not anymore. Now, Israelis appear to be quite content watching as the death toll in
Rabin is really dead, this time.
90% of Jewish Israelis back the invasion. Even more telling of their true feelings towards their Palestinian neighbours, "80% would oppose Israel opening its crossings to Gaza even if Hamas stopped firing on southern towns such as Ashkelon and Sderot". This is the Israeli society as it stands, today.
Forget about Rabin. Were he alive today, he would have, like 700 other Israelis, been detained for protesting the occupation.
The motion towards the support of war has been exemplified by a response to my assertion on Lisa’s blog:
“I supported
Acting against the rockets, regardless of the method, regardless of the consequences, regardless of the rationality of the action, even for their own country. Just acting.
The Israeli mainstream attitude has gone from
“we’ll make peace even if it’s difficult”
to
“let’s shoot something”.
This is where the Liebermanist fiber in every Israeli comes alive. Lieberman believes that
Lieberman once suggested “bombing places of business in Ramallah” - a call that was answered in the ongoing War on
Lieberman’s call for the ‘transfer’, or the ethnic cleansing of the Arab citizens of Israel, is finding renewed support within Israel, as accusations of being “fifth columnists” are raging.
As a first step to expelling
Many Israelis now believe Lieberman as he accuses the 20% Arab minority of treason, telling the Israeli public that “The goals of Hamas and Balad are the same: to destroy
There is no peace camp in
The Israeli foreign policy establishment seems to like Lieberman, too. Danny Ayalon, former Israeli Ambassador to
Coming from a supposed moderate - a mainstreamer, to be more precise - this comment is ever more important as it explains something fundamental in the development of the Israeli collective political identity: the vacuum of leadership, particularly homegrown leadership, has led the 'Club Bouncer from Chisinau' to be the second most popular politician in
Already the Liebermanist cancer is taking control of other Israeli parties, slowly spreading towards the brain - the Government. (note that he has already held four different ministerial portfolios - not an outsider, really).
Moshe Feiglin, “a far-rightist best known for advocating mass civil disobedience to protest the Oslo peace process in the mid-1990s” as described in the progressive Jewish daily The Forward. A rising star - nay, a meteor - of the Likud party (to the dismay of chairman Netanyahu), he said that “Any non-Jew who does not accept the fact that Jews have full and exclusive sovereignty over the Promised Land should find a place in one of the other Arab countries”, says Arabs “follow the behaviour of Amalek”. His manifesto is analysed here: but basically: quit the UN, cut water to the Palestinians, and other such lovely suggestions as using only live ammunition against Palestinian demonstrators.
Like Lieberman, by the way, he lives in a
And he may sound extreme but, as Gideon Levy explains: “The bitter truth is that Netanyahu is essentially no different than Feiglin. They are all Feiglins in the Likud.”
Levy concludes - “Netanyahu is the most popular leader in
I agree.
Let’s face it. Most Israelis are closeted right-wing, Arab-hating extremists. They are Avigdor Lieberman.
Those who don’t actively hate us wish we would just ‘go away’. Anywhere. To Jordan, to Egypt, to Somalia. To the West. To the grave. They don't care. They just object to our existence, not just as a people, but simply as people.
This war has made this obvious to all of us - myself included - who thought there was someone in
There isn’t.
And to Israelis. If you actually care about where your country is heading, if you do not wish your children to grow up in a place governed by fascists, where democracy is a secondary value at best - you might want to get your act together.
69 comments:
The question isn't who support Lieberman. The right question is: who opposes Lieberman?
I think that the Israelis have acted because of the following reasons:
1- The siege on Gaza and political boycott against Hamas began to lose its momentum.
2- They wanted to prove that the army is healthy after the war is lebanon. In other words, seeking to restore Israel's deterrence. A key objective in Israel survival.
3- One million israelis were under the range of fire. This area was never attacked since 1948.
4- Destroying Hamas could have been a great bonus.
5- Punishing the palestinian people for electing Hamas. You can hear about this a lot when they interview politicians. They begin to say: " The palestinian people enjoyed a very good economical situation when they have good relationship with Israel, why they have elected Hamas?". As if they were opening a charity and not a business at which they were the biggest winners while giving the palestinians the min wages.
The israelis have always been turning a blind eye on the real cause of the problem. They seem to forget why did the palestinian people start the first Intifada in the first place at which the palestinians were living under a fairly good economical situation. It is very simple, There are certain things that Money can't buy .
Khaled, Mo-Ham-Med
I don't deny that there is truth in what you are saying. And I do think many Israelis like me feel torn by the anguish and horrors of children and the helpless slaughtered and maimed. What parent can see the sight of people crying by their dead babies and not cry himself? That is not reflected in Lberman’s view or the polls cited.
Even so, I do disagree with your reaction to growing Israeli extremism. Surely you realize I could have replaced the words "Israeli" and "Avigdor Liberman" in Mohamed's post with the words "Palestinian" and "Haled Mashal", and have the post remain sound down to the letter?
Israeli extremism mirrors the Palestinian one, both result from one another and feed each other.
Moderate Arabs advocate for Israel to engage the Palestinian extremists, despite their views or perhaps because of them. I don’t necessarily disagree, but why do you demand less from yourself?
I mean Liberman and Feiglin’s views aren’t more extreme than Hamas's, how about calling for Palestinian engagement with Liberman and co.?
Rejecting Israeli society as whole for its extremists elements (which even now receive less support that the one given by Palestinians to their own extremists) actually justifies the Israeli narrative of disqualifying the Palestinians as possible peace partners because of Hamas.
How about acting on your own advice - Like Abbas inviting Liberman for talks on the future?
G
I think Khaled hit the nail right on the head.....
As for "Most Israelis are closeted right-wing, Arab-hating extremists."....I'm not. At least I like to think I'm not. Most of the people I know don't hate Arabs or want them to 'go away.'
What you don't say, and perhaps don't say it because you don't hear it spoken aloud, is that most people here don't understand the Arabs, think you want us dead and that makes us afraid. It's a fear we all pretend not to feel because it is, we believe, likely to be mistaken for weakness and encourage futher attempts on our lives.
I want what I said before--two healthy vibrant states making us Silicon Wadi and cornering the tourist market, with high-speed train connections from Cairo to Damascus, Beirut, Jerusalem and Isfahan (always wanted to see Isfahan).
I would not vote for any party with Feiglin or Lieberman as a member, and I think there are a lot of us who feel that way....that's why all these tiny single-issue parties get votes--they are 'protest' votes from those of us who don't see much that we like in the major parties.
What's this stuff about Lieberman and "transfer"? I thought what he was proposing was transfering LAND, not people: "Former minister Avigdor Lieberman said Thursday he supports the transfer of some of Jerusalem's Arab neighborhoods and Israeli Arab communities in Wadi Ara over to Palestinian control in conjunction with the establishment of a Palestinian state. " This was from Haaretz in 2004--I thought these were areas the Palestinians WANTED?
Good post--also caught your comments over at Lisa's blog. Haven't read all your links but I'm working through them.
G and aliyah. I fully understand the fears of the israelis at the time being.
This is probably what is running in their/your mind: "We have pulled out from Gaza and they began firing rockets towards Bear Sheva, What would happen if we pull out from the West Bank, Maybe Lieberman was just right". You've got to understand that Hamas couldn't have come into power if the palestinian people have seen the fruits of peace process.
The majority of the palestinian people do in fact believe that the situation before 1993 (Oslo Accord) was much better than afterwards. For example, A simple yet a very effective comparison would be the checkpoints. They have affected every singal palestinian I know. A complete new generation was deprived from his right to visit Jerusalem for example. Many of them have never seen a singal israeli in their lives except on checkpoints .
I know that both checkpoints and the wall have proved to be very effective on the short-term, but trust me you are preparing the perfect recipe of hatred and instability on the long-term.
Khaled
"I fully understand the fears of the israelis at the time being"
Its not only about the fears, for many israelis who supported withdrawal from Lebanon and disengagement from Gaza it is a loss of an argument. I think this article describes it pretty well:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055977.html
Thanks so much for your excellent links & analysis. I've been to several anti-war demonstrations in J'lem and Tel Aviv in the last few weeks, and it's both depressing to see the small turnout and terrifying to be screamed at that I'm the one "endangering Israel." While Hamas is awful, it can't compare with Israel's "leadership" when it comes to who has caused more destruction. The Israeli government has worked very hard to build "justification" for the violence in Gaza, which has done nothing to increase the security of anyone. Again, thank you for this.
G - interesting point about the parity of extremisms..
I will however underscore that when Lieberman and other madmen were part of successive Israeli governments, the Palestinians did not boycott them, as Israel did when Hamas was in power, or during the brief coalition that held for a few months.
The nature of this boycott was, of course, not just shunning them in negotiations but blocking the economy of a couple million people.
And if - rather, when - Lieberman is elected as Prime Minister, he will, too, be called a Man of Peace and gracefully invited to Washington DC and Sharm-el-Sheikh.
Doubtful he would want to, though - he did withdraw from the governing coalition in January 08 to protest the resumption of peace talks with the Palestinians.. clearly peace isn't on the man's radar.
Leonid - interesting article, thank you for sharing -
Although, I must say, AB Yehoshua has done nothing but disappoint with his shallow analysis from the beginning of the war.
"the present war (...) above all for the sake of their children in the future"? I mean, come on, AB!
Aliyah06 - he has threatened before to evict the Palestinian Israelis, saying that they need to "find themselves a new arab entity to live... they can take their bundles and get lost".
As for it being "what they want".. first I'm pretty sure that Palestinian Israelis don't want to be 'transferred' to another country's sovereignty. Nor do the owners of the lands confiscated by Israel to build its settlements want to see them annexed.
Khaled: "who opposed Lieberman?"
Well, right now doesn't seem like anyone is doing that too seriously. Yes, some will complain that he's an extremist but that's pretty much it. If Israelis were to realise the damaging potential of this man's ideology, I think there would be a stronger objection.
Unless, as I fear - they do realise it but happen to agree. Then we're all screwed!
Marisa: Thanks for tuning in!! I very much agree with what you wrote.
Let's hope someone realises that the number of bombs dropped is not proportionate to better security..
Mo-Ha-Med;
I agree that Liberman is a dangerous politician and a fascist, and not only with regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
But it is very important to understand there is nothing new in his extremism - the extreme right in Israel has been here, more or less the same size for decades - whether it's under Liberman or Zeevi. In fact, the Israeli political divide between Left/Right hardly changes, with so called 'dramatic' shifts actually being relatively small (always around the 40%/60%) but enabling the 'other side' to assemble a right/left-wing government. Notice how (except for national unity governments) all Israeli coalitions have consisted of 61-65 Mps (out of a total of 120).
Another "Artificial Extremism" factor is how people feel free to choose a small, extreme party knowing it will serve mainly to "lock" the winning (mainstream) party to their side of the political rift: e.g, One would choose Liberman knowing that Bibi, not Liberman, will win the elections and so feel a 'strong extreme right' will increase the chance of a right-wing coalition. This of course works both ways.
So, to sum things up, I think Israeli society is much more mainstream then you perceive.
Khaled;
I understand the need of Palestinians to see the Fruit of peace but there is a cruel paradox at work here which you ignored.
A two state solution, sadly, doesn’t mean the two states will have good relations in general and economical ties in particular.
When "happily" occupied, Israel was glad to incorporate (and exploit) Palestinians into its job market (for cheap labor and goods). The Palestinian side was very poor and job-hungry and so that worked for a while, actually improving their economics. The Intifadas gained the Palestinians the PA and some facsimile of a (fetus like) independence, but also relieved Israel of any sense of responsibility it may have had. Job permits became a prize, to be given or withdrawn as Israel saw fit. The Israeli labour market moved on to imported labor and the Israeli Textile and low-Tech manufacturing now-days is located in Jordan, Egypt and the far-East.
It seems to me most likely that as the Palestinians get closer to independence Israel will "shut them out" more and more. I am betting (I wish I am wrong), that a real Palestinian state will see the borders with Israel sealed for good. For the Palestinians, depending on the larger, richer Israeli market for jobs and export market this means an increase of economical hardship as their independence draws closer.
G
Oy! That macroeconomic analysis is bitter, indeed--I don't think as things currently stand, "shutting out" the Palestinians from the Israeli job market is good for the Palestinians---not unless something dramatic happens to increase job prospects east of the Green Line.
Khaled, once again, you have summed up Israeli fears exactly. That is EXACTLY what people are afraid of, and say out loud--"we withdrew from Lebanon, and got shelled by Hezbollah; we withdrew from Gaza and we're getting shelled from Gaza--we don't dare withdraw from the West Bank."
Even among those Israelis who DO see the checkpoints and economic hardships, there is a hardening of attitudes and a sense of, "well, they started it with the Intifada and all those suicide bombings," (understand that I am not saying this is a correct analysis--I am merely repeating what Israelis say and feel) so its "better to have checkpoints and a wall/fence to keep out suicide bombers in order to protect our families."
BTW--I don't know if you've ever been to Israel, or if you live here or nearby, but we can't go shopping without going through checks ourselves--my car gets searched coming into the lot, and I get searched coming into the store. Or theatre. Or school. No one gets into anywhere without being stopped and searched.
So....where do we go from here? The Palestinians would like their own state, their own economy, and self-determination.
We would like to live in peace and not have to send our kids into the army every generation, not live locked in our own 'prison' of both impassable borders and fear of annihilation.
People of good will can write here (and other blogs) and discuss the problems, but no one seems to have a really workable solution -- and if the Right wins at the next election, which looks like a given, then nothing will happen in terms of a comprehensive peace settlement unless Netanyahu wants to imitate Begin and make peace via some form of the Arab Initiative.
I would like a Middle East that looks like the EU in terms of open borders and economic growth.
If Hamas won't renounce violence and won't recognize Israel, then that is, from the Israeli perspective, the first major obstacle.
Any ideas?
{Mohammed--I thought that was Livni that said that, not Lieberman....but I trust you to be correct when it comes to inflammatory racist statements such as those...}
Hi Mohamed,
I think you totally misinterpreted a seeming swing toward Lieberman and the right among the Israeli polity. The problem is not that the average Israeli does not want peace -- the average Israeli wants peace more than anything else. We want Hamas and their rockets to go away and leave us alone. A left center government--Labor and Kadima--was given a chance. They failed to deliver. In the Israeli mentality there is no alternative but to give the other guys a chance to deliver peace. It's why Israelis can seem so schizophrenic voting in left wing governments, right wing governments. The attitude is give someone a chance, if he doesn't deliver, try someone else.
I think (I hope) some of the same mentality was at play with the Palestinians in Gaza voting Hamas in a few years ago. Fatah failed to deliver on their promises -- so they decided to give the other guys a crack at it.
Mohamed,
I read this post a few days ago and wanted to respond thoroughly, but I stopped myself as I reminded myself (based on past experience) that there won't be any real discussion here, but more of throwing dirt at Israel.
But I do have one thing to say:
Israel is not a perfect country and we know it (and believe it or not, we try every day to make it a little better). But one of the best qualities it has - It has real freedom. It is a country where all voices can be heard, rational and psychic alike (and I define Liberman and BALAD in the same "extremist spot - both get to say their thing (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057497.html)
and both are crazy extremists that enjoy shouting rubbish (and yes, they are still both considered by the mainstream as crazy)).
As a long-time reader of ALQUDS, ADDUSTOUR, ALAHARAM, ALSHARQ ALAWSAT and such, I can safely say the democracy and freedom of speech practiced in ISRAEL is not practiced elsewhere in the middle east (and for another proof, look at PEACEMAN and other bloggers/journalists who don't dare reveal their names in fear of lynches and such). It might be a source of weakness compaired to ASSAD's totalitarism, but it witholds a great strength as well. And it is not perfect, but hell, nobody's perfect.
As a western (originally from France, no?), I'd figure you'd summon a wake up call for the middle east to have more freedom of speech, but heck, Israel's a easier target than trying to make the Arab countries a bit better (after all you might want to go back there one day so you mustn't say harsh words).
So do us a favor, us Israeli left-wingers can handle the political situation quite well without your arrogance.
And one more thing.
After reading his party's charter, I can honestly say that Liebrman may be a extremist and a threat to democracy, but as his party has no saying about the extermination of the Arab (or Palestinian) people/states (as the HAMAS, HIZBALLAH, ALICHWAN and PLO have, concerning the jewish (not israeli, jewish!) people), I really don't think Lieberman is anywhere near the "middle east racist/fascist hall of fame").
You need to understand some things about the Israeli electorate.
1. About half of Jewish Israelis are Mizrachi Jews. They are descended from the roughly 1 million Jews who were expelled from and/or fled from Arab/Muslim countries in response to anti-Semitic violence and threats. These people, on average, are more right-wing than other groups, and are (again on average) much more cynical in discussions of Arab goodwill and the peace process.
2. The more terrorism is a factor in daily life, and the more effort regional regimes put into attacking Israel, and the more people around the world try to isolate Israel, the more Israelis are willing to support right-of-center parties whose emphasis is on robust measures to ensure security. In contrast, when the region seems a safer place, most Israelis are more likely to focus on non-security issues, and the resulting governments are more likely to be left of center and more dovish.
The longer an Israeli government holds back and does nothing effective to stop terrorism, the more likely it is that this government will be replaced by a much more right-wing government. And Israel has been doing very little about the rocket barrages on Sderot for quite some time now.
Does this mean that Israelis are a bunch of bloodthirsty freaks? NO. It means that these same people, who JUST 3 YEARS AGO supported disengagement from Gaza only to see it turned into a platform for attacks on Israeli cities, and who have seen Hizballah back off since Israel struck back at IT, are determined that THE ATTACKS FROM GAZA MUST STOP.
3. Israelis don't want civilians to die, but the way Israelis see it, HAMAS has been carrying out acts of war against Israel, and if it's a war, then Israel will fight it as a war. Israel already spent enormous $ and effort to minimize civilian casualties. Did it always succeed? No. Has any other army, in the midst of a war, actually phoned ahead to tell people to get out of buildings it was going to bomb? As Israelis see it, Israel cannot let HAMAS's eagerness to martyr their own civilians stop Israel from defending itself. Israelis believe that HAMAS is the one choosing to kill Gazan civilians by booby trapping neighborhoods, firing from schools, etc. Israelis as a whole are well aware of how HAMAS fights, and so rather than blaming the IDF for civilian deaths, THEY BLAME HAMAS.
4. While I don't like Lieberman and his party, let's be intellectually honest.
* Yisrael Beiteinu supports a two-state solution.
* Lieberman's proposal was to exchange TERRITORY with the PA. He did NOT advocate expelling Israeli Arabs from their land. He advocated giving several heavily-Arab regions of Israel to the PA as part of the future Palestinian state, in exchange for the heavily-Jewish Gush Katif settlement blocks. The plan allowed the Arab Israelis living in these areas to retain Israeli citizenship if they wished.
* Most people agree that some kind of territorial exchange will take place. Yisrael Beiteinu has simply designated that the land that Israel would provide to the Palestinian state would be land that is already heavily settled by "Palestinian Israelis."
* Israeli Arabs generally oppose the Lieberman plan. There are 2 different reasons for this. (1) while Israel is borderline dysfunctional in some areas and Arabs face some racism, any thinking person would prefer the Israeli state (e.g. health care system and freedom of speech) over the corruption-riddled mess that is the PA. (2) Deep distrust; the idea of "exchange" has been misrepresented by Israeli Arab leaders as "forcible expulsion of Arabs from their land."
A tangent related to #1:
The Israeli city of Sderot, which Hamas has bombarded with so many 1000s of rockets since 2000, was originally founded as a refugee camp for Kurdish Jewish refugees fleeing violent pogroms and intimidation in Iraq. By 1961, almost 90% of the people were North African Jewish refugees, and the rest were mostly Kurdish Jews. In the 1990s, many ex-Soviet immigrants came; but Sderot remains heavily populated by Jews who fled fear and violence in the Arab world.
Johnathan said...
And one more thing.
After reading his party's charter, I can honestly say that Liebrman may be a extremist and a threat to democracy, but as his party has no saying about the extermination of the Arab (or Palestinian) people/states (as the HAMAS, HIZBALLAH, ALICHWAN and PLO have, concerning the jewish (not israeli, jewish!) people), I really don't think Lieberman is anywhere near the "middle east racist/fascist hall of fame").
According to the polls, as far as I know, Lieberman is not going to be in the next Knesset. Ridiculous post by the way.
The motion towards the support of war has been exemplified by a response to my assertion on Lisa’s blog:
“I supported Oslo, I supported disengagement, I would support withdrawal from the West Bank in exchange for real, long-term permanent peace (…) the time had come to act against the rockets.”
Acting against the rockets, regardless of the method, regardless of the consequences, regardless of the rationality of the action, even for their own country. Just acting.
The thing is that if not us who will act against Hamas? You? Don't make me laugh...
You are lucky that most Israelis don't have a habit of reading Arab blogs, otherwise they would have seen you for what you are. I admit it took me quite a while to get a correct notion about you and other, call it progressive, Arab bloggers. And I am telling you - all your previous nice talk notwithstanding you are just a cover-up or smokescreen for Hamas and its likes.
You know, after our last war in Lebanon there was a debate in Israel about why the IDF kept sending soldiers to attack when the government was already negotiating a deal. A couple of dozens of soldiers died because of this decision. The explanation provided and generally accepted was that the war was still going on and the outcome of the negotiations was influenced by the military pressure on the other side.
Now, one thing standing out about the last war was its futility and meaninglessness for the Palestinians. Say that Hamas needlessly provoked Israel. Ok. Let put it aside. Say that it was waiting for ground forces to inflict casualties on the IDF. Lets forget about it. But on the second week of this conflict it was plain obvious that Hamas is resisting for no good reason. It was a pointless war. Any normal government under such conditions would give up and go to negotiate ceasefire to save lives of its people and their property. In vain I was searching through your blogs looking for one single line that would say just this: if Hamas can't resist, if it can't protect, if it can't hurt the other side, then it should spare its people this war and stop it.
You think that we are all just simple human beings trying to go about living our simple human lives? You are wrong. We are not. There is an oceanic distance between you and us. The reason why you are expecting our society to have a mercy on your people is because your own society has none of it for them. Suicide bombers that you are spawning by thousands everywhere from Iraq to Pakistan, they are just minicopies of your societies. And your own blog is just another manifestation of the same.
You know, Mo-Ham-Med, I am amazed at how little you understand Israelis, given your prolonged interest in and exposure to us. I presume it's got something to do with your bias-induced blindness.
All Israelis want from the Arabs is to leave us alone. We don't care how Arabs leave us alone as long as they do. They can die or live, fail or prosper, become successful democracies or anarchistic warzones in which tribes and factions battle each other to death. As long as we are left alone, it's all good.
The collective saying of the Israeli Jewish society to Arabs: Just leave us the fuck alone.
Anonymous G:
I hope you're right, and that the Israeli society is indeed more mainstream that I think.
But polls don't make me optimistic.
I was excited with the prospect of Livni as PM. I was hopeful. (was it you who explained to me that her refusal to submit to Shas' anti-peace conditions were proof of her commitment to peace and stuff?)
But now - I'm very disappointed. Both with the politicians - all of them, including Meretz! - and with the popular opinion, which was overwhelmingly pro-revengeful violence in the past month.
Latest polls give Likud 30, Kadima 22, Yisrael Beitenu 16, Labour 14 seats.
This doesn't disappoint me: it scares me.
Regarding the 'sealed borders' in case of Palestinian independence - i don't know, but i somehow doubt it. Israel is shutting the Palestinians out because it can actually afford to - even if it isn't necessarily optimal for it (arguable, I agree). I am hoping, however, that when - if - a peace deal is reached, it will include provisions on economic cooperation.
The Palestinian and Israeli economies are quite joined at the hip (with the dependent twin being the Palestinian economy, of course). Off the top of my head, i can think of fishing/water/extraction/Mediterranean coast/Dead sea tourism/and, of course, religious tourism - that will maintain economic relations and where cooperation makes more sense.
It is unlikely than in the long term they'll be successfully separated.
Aliyah06
So we're defining what the 'major obstacles' are.
Looks like we're getting more headway with peace negotiations in a while. :)
I enjoyed what you wrote - as always - and right now I believe we should be brainstorming a peace that will never come.. become we need to keep the faith right?
Eh.
I'll start with commenting on "Hamas renouncing violence and recognising Israel" as the first obstacle.
My question to you is: shouldn't that be the OUTCOME of the negotiation? You can't ask for the outcome as a prerequisite...
Because if they agree - what cards do they have? If they give Israel - which will have all the guns - what it wants - what do they have to bring to the table? They'll be... Arafat, hoping to convince anyone to give him anything, with only wet kisses to offer.
Reb Barry:
My understanding in the 2006 elections were more about local politics and Fatah corruption than delivering peace - which is nevertheless constantly hovering in the background, as it was added on the failures list of Fatah.
You seem to equate "wanting peace" and "wanting to be left alone". I would, if I may, disagree.
Because wanting to 'be left alone' can be done in multiple ways, peace being just one of them. The other way(s) are more or less violent. And I'm afraid the Liebermanesque way is en vogue right now...
Johnathan -
first, sorry you feel this way. Though dirt is never thrown if undeserved. :-P
More seriously, I hope you will nevertheless give a thorough response when you feel like it - and you can surely expect a decent discussion.
And btw - know that I welcome your comments.
You're accusing me of not doing something - 'summoning a wake up call' , etc. But don't you think that's a different topic altogether?
True, Israel probably has far more freedom of expression than the rest of the Arab world, i give you that - gladly. And I don't think it's a source of weakness, no, quite on the contrary.
But Israel falls much shorter than what it pretends to be. There is real segregation within the Israeli society, and Arabs enjoy much less freedom and fewer rights and serious discrimination compared to the Jews. (case in point, since your hyperlink brings it up: 10 Arab MKs out of 120, for 20% of the population?)
And I won't mention the Jerusalemites, kept under occupation, where their land is annexed to the country but they remain Citizens of Nowhere. Nor the Occupation, because, eh.
Luckily your country does have a remarkable Supreme Court - which, unfortunately, the Executive branch is in the habit of discarding at will (most recently on the Q of journalists entering Gaza, for instance).
I don't think Lieberman is as fringe as you think. The man has held 4 ministerial portfolios in recent years, Jonathan. Its leader is more popular than the main figures of either Kadima and Labour.
He is becoming mainstream - and it's not that he's coming towards the centre of the political spectrum: the public opinion is going to the right, and with scary rapidity.
That's the main argument of my entry really.
Anonymous:
Thanks for the explanations. The comment on Mizrahi jews in particular struck my interest.
This confirms my first assumption though: the Israeli electorate is shifting to the right, very right!
(Although, as a dear of mine would say, "but Shifra won!"(yes, I watched Ha-ach Hagadol as well. :)
I disagree about the "did nothing for a long time" though. Do you believe the blockade and the occasional - frequent - strikes are 'nothing'?
And please - the 'phone people in Gaza' argument is ludicrous. I won't even argue about its effectiveness because that would be giving it more support than it deserves. It really serves to hide the simple fact that Israel bombed those people and their houses!! And THAT is the main issue, really!
Nobody:
Ah, my dear, angry, racist Nobody...
I doubt Lieberman won't be in the next Knesset... As long as there are serious Arab-haters like yourself, the man is guaranteed a very comfy seat right in the front row.
Unless you succeed in making him Prime Minister? :)
As for your second comment,
You seem to be stuck on the first level of analysis regarding this war. If it isn't obvious to you yet, it might be someday, but bottom line is - a war was NOT a bright idea! Nor for Palestinians, and frankly, not even for achieving Israel's supposed and untold goals in Gaza.
As for you 'seeing me for what i am' - gosh, unlikely. First because you are completely blinded by your hatred. And second, because frankly you don't have the required intellect. Your habit of lumping everything and everyone together - me, other bloggers, Pakistanis? (wtf?) proves just your very limited capacity of analysis.
Truth is, I am disappointed. Not with you - you never fail my expectations - but by Israel as a whole. You'll have to read some previous posts to understand - i recommend you start with my Israel 101 series, on the sidebar.
Abu Sa'ar
Well this is actually something we agree upon: frankly, I'd like Israel to leave us alone too :)
Starting with the Palestinian territories; would be nice if Israel would leave them alone. Unlikely in the near future, don't you think?
But you can't have it both ways.
The way it seems right now is that Israel doesn't want to be left alone: it wouldn't be seeking integration, diplomatic relations, etc. if it did.
Nah. Israel wants it its way. And that's going to be hard to come, as long as Israel isn't willing to play ball.
(and by play ball, i would mean NOT shoot at people. :)
Mo-Ha-Med;
I am afraid you didn't hear that piece of analysis on Livni from me. Don’t be too sad about her not taking office, though. Peace is as achievable / not achievable to practically the same extent with all major Israeli leaders, really.
As for your strong feelings of disappointment, I admit I am disappointed by your disappointment. Too many moderate Arabs "give up" on the idea of engaging/understanding the Israeli side/narrative with each round of confrontation. Commitment to talking is tested in hard times, when children from both sides are being killed, not when you’re sipping coffee with your bohemian friends in Shenkin.
You will have to grow and accept that there are people on the Israeli side that want peace and hurt the other side's pain but still supported this and other operations.
The heart and mind don't always necessarily agree. While being all Mind with no hear is evil, being all heart with no mind is equally evil.
Israeli public opinion will shift this way and that. Remember the only person that actually had settlers removed from PA territory, permanently and in significant numbers, is Ariel Sharon, which I am sure you has a seat near Liberman's in his views of the conflict. The reasons for him doing it are much less important the end results. This was true for the Egypt-Israel peace treaty as well.
G
Mo-Ha-Med;
Oh, and another thing:
For the root cause of the sad state of "Arab Power" in the Israeli Knesset (5-7MP's only) the Israeli Palestinians need only to look in the mirror. If, pardon my French, they got off their asses and started to turn up on Election Day (last election they had a measly 20%-30% turnout vs. 75% vr. Jewish voters) they would have a strong, 20-seat party, which would be impossible to ignore and have real influence.
G
Pardon my typo's on the last two comment - I am too lazy to use a speller...:)
G
G,
Rotschild is where I sipped coffee, actually. Sheinkin is dead. Khalas.
And over nearly a year in Palestine and Israel, I did slightly more than sip coffee, and met more than my bohemian friends.
I had interesting, sometimes difficult, sometimes nearly-insulting conversations with people from various walks of the political spectrum. Settlers, soldiers, I spoke with whomever was keen on engaging in a conversation with me.
And this is probably why I am so disappointed (the disappointment that seems to disappoint you.:)
My impression was that there is hope in this country, there is someone to be talked to, from the people who want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya (i do a mean solo, btw) to people whom, as Abu Sa'ar wrote earlier, want a 'we-each-do-our-own-thing' solution.
The public support for this war was, for me, a painful wake up call. This is why I was so disappointed.
Maybe I have spent too much time on Rotschild after all.
(now it's my time to apologise for the typos - just woke up. :)
Aliyah06 I am a permanent resident of Jerusalem. First, I cannot compare the checks into the malls or the coffee shops to the daily palestinian suffering through the checkpoints. For an israeli it would be fair enough to say to the security guard/soldier (Shalom שלום, How are you מה שלומך ) or to pass through a metal detector which can be oddly turned on. For a palestinian it is a different storry. If you are in a bus, you have to step down from the bus (because you are a palestinian (even if you have a permanent residency status), if you were a holder of a foreign passport you don't have to (by the way, doesn't this look like an apartheid system?). When travelling between Jerusalem and Ramallah you will have to wait somewhere between 30 min to 1 hour in order to pass back to home. And the list goes on.... So please don't try to compare between the two.
G, The Question is: Is the cup half empty or half full? For example, it is true that the Gazans were almost completely dependent on the israeli job market. But would happen, if Israel left Gaza alone and allowed the palestinians to build an airport down there. What would happen if Israel left the palestinians alone and allowed them to build a port down there? Wouldn't it much be much easier to export the palestinian strawberry to england or maybe selling flowers directly to Holland's Central Flower Exchange. Would that open the way for the hundreds of thousands of arabs and muslims who thrive to visit the palestinian territories? Well, A lot can happen if Israelis left us alone ;). It is afterall , How do you define occupation? But If you have a checkpoint between between Tel-Aviv and Petah Tekva, a checkpoint between Tel-Aviv and Hertzilya, a checkpoint between Tel-Aviv and Holon and another checkpoiny between Tel-aviv and Ra'anana and you still call Tel-aviv independent then it is a completely different storry.....
And again I do understand the saying: "Life is more important than the Quality of life", but it is very important to note that then when the quality of life on the other side gets bad enough so that life becomes meaningless.... the situation similar to that in Gaza would be created....
Mo -
It was tried. This is what you refuse to see and this is why Israelis have abandoned the so-called Peace Camp.
When Israel tried to leave Yehuda and Shomron - a Palestinians state on 97% of the territories + bits of Negev - we got an intifada.
When Israel left Gaza alone, we got 8 years of rockets.
The current trajectory of Israeli policies is eventual unilateral disengagement. This requires only two more processes to be completed: the security barrier and a solid missile shield. Once we have complete separation enforced by these, even the checkpoints won't be needed anymore simply because the Palestinians will have lost their ability to harm us.
And as for relationships with Arab states... there is still hope among the elites that the Arabs will stop being genocidal maniacs. So you have people like Peres running around, shaking hands and doing stuff offering Jordan a highly profitable joint airport near Eilat. They get, of course, spat in the face.
We don't even need the cheap labor. Chinese workers cost the same, do a better job and never blow up.
So don't worry, ya Mo. We won't have peace, but we sure will have separation.
Mo-Ha-Med;
So, you wake up at 11:00, just to open your blog, probably at a stylish coffee shop. That's one lazy Bohemian If I ever saw one. :)
As for our Disappointed vs. Disappointment discussion, I still feel you’re missing my point. This discussion is getting heated responses from the Israelis here, for the same reason Palestinians get angry when someone tells them “Palestinians should grow up and stop supporting terrorism” or “Polls show 90% of Palestinians still support rocket launching, this is very disappointing and proves they are not yet ready to make the right choices”, etc’, you get the idea.
You are doing here the same kind of patronizing thought process the Palestinians hate so much. If you have been indeed talking to all kind of Israelis (settlers, religious, mainstream) and still have been surprised it just means you have been wearing opaque glasses instead of transparent ones. Israeli society is not for you to approve or disapprove, it is a given, just like Palestinian society and beliefs which are a given and reject the patronizing “we will tell you how you should feel” line.
You want peace? This is what you have to work with, period.
You can control your actions, not the other side’s. Your are acting EXACTLY like the Israeli’s who say “Palestinian opinions are so extreme and disappointing, see 90% still support rocket attacks, so lets wait until they grow up and bla bla …”. Or of course “Lets bomb the hell out of them until THEY UNDERSTAND Hamas is bad for them”, etc.
Criticizing the way Israeli public opinion responds by using the exact same thought processes is hypocritical, and non-productive.
G
Khaled;
I completely agree that if Gazans would have their own free airport and sea-port, they could trade directly with Europe and strive for independence is a way which cannot be achieved now. This would boost both their economy and dignity.
But, to do this, they have to reach some sort of deal with Israel - and Hamas, I think, is not willing to sign or uphold such a deal.
Strictly from an Economical viewpoint, even then Gazans would have a very difficult time not depending on the Israeli market. 1.5millions Gazans cannot earn a living by selling flowers and tomatoes to Europe, not a respectable living anyway. Gaza doesn’t have the land resources or the technological infrastructure for “high-tech” agriculture, which can maximize earnings, and even if they did it wouldn’t be enough.
As for Arab tourists, I think your fantasizing here. Do you actually think the rich Saudis and the like will give up the Lebanese or European Rivieras for Gaza? They want a vacation from strict Islamic rule, they have enough of that at home…
What Gazans need are jobs, factories, industry! But foreign investors won’t come until they are sure of stability and calm, bombings are bad for business.
A way out of it was the Erez crossing type industrial zones, on the Israel-Gaza border, in which Gazans worked in Israeli factories (and were closed down due to several suicide bombings). I know, this rubs many Palestinians the wrong way because they feel its just another form of exploitation. Maybe so, but its better to have those factories employ Palestinians then Chinese or Philippinos in the far-east…
G
SO G, you are assuming the long-term stay of the islamic rule in gaza?. In addition, why does Hamas have to sign an agreement with Israel to open the port while the palestinian people don't truly want it? They have elected Hamas? didn't they?
The most important rule of democracy : it is unpredictable .
The average palestinian prefers leaving on the edge of poverty than living under occupation. They aren't truly too much used to drink Coffee at Aroma or shopping from ZARA. They just want to leave them ALONE! I can assume they could still survive without ISRAEL and most importantly the Israeli interference.
Why does everybody seem to be against Mohammad thoughts.... It is completely undoubtely true that more and more israelis are less and less believing in peace. We might argue about the reasons behind that but not about the fact itself.
And for those who claim that Lieberman isn't a fascist. It is true that Lieberman may not say " I want to kill the palestinians" but he suggests cutting the water supply.... Doesn't the body requires between one and seven liters of water per day to avoid dehydration and to function properly? I think it is very important to agree that Lieberman is an asshole.... Isn't he?
G:
I find being referred as a Bohemian extremely amusing! :)
You're accusing me of patronising Israelis? Well that would be a first...
If I am indeed getting heated responses it is because I'm probably striking a nerve. My analysis was simple, fact-based, and Israelis don't like the outcome: I respect their right to do so.
Your comparison gets some credit insofar as the statistics you mention are taken out of context (and then stick!). My impressions, which are formulated in this article, are based on facts. This is what polls show. This is what the majority of the electorate thinks. Etc.
What do you mean, not something for me to approve or disapprove? I am very much entitled to express agreement or disagreement if I see fit. Like you do right now, really.You disagreed with me; you said it. I am not about to respond that "that's me, take it or leave it!" or, as you write, "don't tell me how i should feel".. right?
I fear that you are not getting my point. My overall impression - with all its inaccuracies - was, when I was in Israel - a few days before the war, actually - was that there was a majority willing to talk peace.
It now looks to me that there isn't. That the majority is as far from peace as can be.
And I think this is quite productive. It will save us wasted time trying in vain to negotiate with a country more interested in waging wars; to ring someone who's not willing to pick up the phone.
And BTW - Gaza had an airport. You bombed it.
A final comment on your 'bombs are bad for business'. True. But Israel has been at risk of bombs for a while, and there is still business, right?
You know what is worse for business? Occupation. And particularly the instability it brings. Being constantly under the risk of being locked out or in, of your goods rotting at a checkpoint, at your company being bombed to dust by an F-16. I worked on Investment Promotion in the West Bank and we were having all the difficulties in the world convincing investors - from within Palestine or abroad - to invest; hell, we couldn't even get them visas to go to the West Bank to visit potential project sites, because Israel controls visas.
Khaled:
I agree that Lieberman is an asshole, yes. :)
I do disagree with you a bit though. I think the Palestinian economy is quite dependent on the Israeli one. Particularly under a peace scenario, the benefits of cooperation and better integration can be huge.
There are many studies on the economic benefits of Peace for israel. i can think of the study by the Portland Trust (2004) and the Palestinian-Israeli Business Forum (2008), right on top of my head.
Abu Sa'ar:
I love how you're stating that Israelis have abandoned the peace camp: i agree. I never thought I'd agree with you. :-) (yes, I'm joking ya achi...)
Please don't tell me you're referring to Camp David. That was a joke. anyone with half a brain would've refused this ridiculous offer of non-contiguous parcels of land, with no control over water or natural resources, with no real resolution of the central issues, and with parcels of desert in exchange. Seriously, dude.
One of the economic benefits for Israel in a peace scenario would undoubtedly be access to the Palestinian labour market. Check the studies i mentioned above.
Palestinian labour, even manual labour, is better trained, is more committed on the long term (because they live right there!), and, very importantly, speaks the language. Many Palestinians from the WB and G speak Hebrew, which they learned working in Israel prior to 2000. And this is very important - and for more than mere communication with their Israeli colleagues/bosses/clients.
And when you think of the Thai workers who were shot in Metula by the Army because they didn't understand the signs that said "restricted military zone", trust me, you realise how non-trivial that is...
As for security - there is no such thing as a perfect security system. Ask the Americans.. The Wall is incredibly porous, you wouldn't believe it. You are told otherwise: trust me, I've been past it a few hundred times. It isn't the Wall that decreased attacks - it's effective intelligence work. The Wall is little more than a land grabbing device and you know it.
As a friend of mine would say - do you really think that if a suicide bomber wanted to go to Israel, he'd queue at Qalandia checkpoint? :)
;
You said: "It will save us wasted time trying in vain to negotiate with a country more interested in waging wars".
Here you do it again, using the same arguments used by right-wing Israelis not to negotiate with Palestinians.
Heck, talking like that will get you an honorary membership card in the Likud party easily!
Of course you have a right for your opinion of Israelis, I never said otherwise. It is using those observations as an excuse for "leaving the table" is what I reject. All of us should bear the type of responsibility in our talking and acting as we would expect of our leaders..
You have acknowledged to some extent, how you're and many Palestinian's observations and conclusions can and are mirrored by the Israeli side, but are not willing to move them an inch. I am just thankful the Israeli left, which wants peace (yes, even though some did support the current operation), ,doesn’t see it the way you do or it would have disintegrated decades ago because of the "Palestinians not wanting peace" argument.
As you say, Khalas. This is becoming a series of monologues. I will give you the honor of last word on the subject, but let's put this discussion to rest.
G
Mo-Ha-Med, Khaled;
I don't think there is any chance Israel will stop "interfering" with Palestinian business, Khaled. From the Syrian reactor to the Gaza airport, Israel considers anything which effects its security as it's affair. Israel is btw hardly special in that regard.
The Palestinians, btw, do there own share of interfering with Israel, per their abilities: You really don't think calling off the truce a month before the Israeli general elections is a mere coincidence, do you? Palestinians know how to push the Israeli buttons well; they just keep getting surprised by the results…
There is no shame for Palestinians to agree to put a limit on their re-armament in exchange for peace or release of the Israeli blockage. It is an essential part of convincing Israel that the risk it is taking by opening borders is being managed. Egypt agreed to essentially the same when it negotiated to get it's own territory back: It agreed, in violation of its own sovereignty, to severely limit the army personal and equipment is can put in the Sinai, and adhered to it for 30 years (and now Israel is pleading Egypt to increase those forces..). If the Palestinians were leading Egyptian negotiations, the Egypt-Israeli peace treaty would never have happened.
G
Mohammad, I do agree with what you have said.But I wasn't talking about the economical benefits that might merge from a cooperation with the Israelis under a true peace agreement. I Was saying... what if Israel didn't exist? would it be a killer to the palestinian people? I think NO.
G , The palestinians have already gave a lot. They have agreed to the fact that is Israel should take the biggest share 78% and have agreed to take the smallest part 22% (A share that Israel would still argue taking a share in). The palestinians have waited more than seven years since the declaration of Oslo Accords didn't see the true peace anywhere close. By that time, Israel didn't withdraw from C areas.
G. A lot of palestinians are refugees. Me myself I am . When I pass everynow and then by our house in west jerusalem and I see the people( I mean the thieves) staying there. I would say in my mind ... WTF! What else do they want from us? What else you would be saying in my position?
Excellent new relevant articles:
Keep an eye on Lieberman
Conflict costs Israelis, Palestinians dear: study
ISRAEL: Will Arab parties take part in February elections?
G -
"an honorary membership card in the Likud party" would make a good friend of mine very proud.. I'll be sure to forward him the news!
More seriously: Your comparison in unfair. There has always been various people to talk to - or not - on the Palestinian side. The "Palestinians don't want peace" or the brilliant "there's no Palestinian partner" rhetoric was just a soundbite.
On the Israeli side, there's one office to talk to: the Government (because it's a functioning, normal government!). Israeli government wants peace, there will be serious talks: if it doesn't, well, there won't.
You define yourself as a left-winger: I'll assume we both want the same outcome (that 'peace' thingie. :)
Very well.
I have a question. Under a right-wing, with extreme-right-wing tendencies, what will happen to the 'peace process' (or lack thereof)?
And what will the role of the left-wing be under such a government?
"anyone with half a brain would've refused this ridiculous offer of non-contiguous parcels of land, with no control over water or natural resources, with no real resolution of the central issues, and with parcels of desert in exchange."
We agreed to a far worse deal in 1948, just for the chance to live in our land. You remember Solomon's Trial?
There was actually a very similar situation in Ireland: they were offered something that was close to what they wanted. Some wanted to continue fighting until they get everything; most wanted to actually have peace. Most won and Ireland was independent, after a civil war with the all-or-nothing people. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, so far they chose the all-or-nothing pretty much every time.
The economic benefit: hell, man, were Palestinians to stop trying to kill us (truly stop trying to kill us, not a hudna or any other lie) this could eventually become a global economy center. Crossroads of Middle East, Africa and Europe, with access to two seas, large natural gas resources, a mighty Silicone Wadi and probably a biotech center as well?
Is not going to happen as long as genocide is on the Palestinian agenda, though. And not for a long time after that, too. The aforementioned trust issue. Regardless of the benefits of the Palestinian workforce, the potential negatives are so great that it's simply not worthwhile.
And as for the security barrier: it has over 80% efficiency in all locations. Many sectors have even a higher success rate. These percentages are measured with considerations for intelligence saturation. The barrier works. It works precisely why many terrorists wouldn't go through a checkpoint (although you would be surprised how many have tried) - when you're going cross-country and there's this big tall fence with cameras and contact sensors in your way, you'll have a problem. Eventually it will be a border like our borders with Lebanon and Syria - impenetrable. And I am quite excited about the potential of automated turrets and patrol bots.
And at least where the barrier is concrete it protects against sniper fire.
Mo-Ha-Med;
I have this naggin’ feeling you don’t really get how this thing call Israel operates (one government, one voice??). Anyway, bear with me:
Israel is more like Lebanon politically than any other country I know. Our various parties don’t represent only different political views, but actually separate sects, each with its own lifestyle, belief system and vision of how Israel should be. Instead of Shiites, Christians and Druze we have: Liberal-Secular, Crazy-Religious, Messiac-Religious, and so on (only we manage ourselves much better than the mess which calls itself Lebanon).
What’s called “Decision making” in other countries, is in Israel the net result of all these parties pushing and shoving according their vision and current tactical position.
Whether the current coalition is right wing or left wing is not so important. Parties can vote against their own coalition, support opposing coalitions; oppose a policy while staying in government or support the policy while leaving it, all in the spur of the moment. In this sense, a new coalition is formed for each important decision.
Peace? The question isn’t who wants peace, everybody wants peace. The question is what are you willing to compromise for peace and what risks are you willing to take. For the far Right - practically nothing. The far Left - everything. In between - it depends.
The importance of elections in Israel is determining the size (and therefore bargaining power) of the different players while the choice of ruling coalition is nothing more than a marriage of comfort between several leading parties. Whether a new Camp-David emerges depends much more on Obama and what Israel gains in the negotiations than if Liberman gets to be minister of whatever.
So you see the left-wing’s role in Israeli politics remain pretty much the same under any coalition, and that is to advance “our sect’s” vision as much as possible - including the compromises we think should be done for peace - which isn’t easy. So please try and raise the voice of Arab moderation load enough so the masses in Israel can hear you, even if they don’t want to.
G
אביגד..אלכס מבקש לדעת מה יהיה עם ערביי ישראל ?
I like this blog, more posts please!! I think you're unduly pessimistic, btw. (then again, I'm an optimist) True, Israel is moving to the right, the country is full of arabhaters, but Obama's been elected and Israelis might, just might want to compromise in other to keep american aid coming their way. More and more Israelis also understand that a palestinian state is in their interest. Also, the occupation cost money. Maybe the global economic downfall would help the Israeli goverment to come to their senses and dismantle the settlement.
Keep up the good work, and take care of yourself (your in the west bank, right?) Don't get shot.
Helen in London
Thanks so much Mohammed and Khaled.
I can't tell you how much it means to me to read what you are saying.
Actually, some of this applies to the Israelis commenting too!
I don't agree completely with anyone...I was very much against the Gaza War but I didn't think that as a modern war it was fought inhumanely, for example.
But you all actually do a great deal of real TALKING and LISTENING which is remarkable.
Jeff
[email protected]
Abu Sa'ar:
"We agreed to a far worse deal in 1948, just for the chance to live in our land."
Oh peu-lease. Don't get all poetic on me. Plus it doesn't suit you. :)
I'll let Ben-Gurion answer you:
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan. One does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today -- but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concerns of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." P. 53, "The Birth of Israel, 1987" Simha Flapan.
In essence, the Jewish militias accepted the partition because they never planned to abide by it anyway.
As for borders - no border is impenetrable. None. Don't be silly. The sooner you admit the Wall is actually a land-grab and a create-facts-on-the-ground tool, the better.
G:
I know quite well how the Israeli political system functions (and i find the high party fragmentation to be counterproductive, giving disproportionate power to smaller and more radical parties - but that's another discussion).
"Peace? The question isn’t who wants peace, everybody wants peace."
I disagree. Many people don't want peace. Seems like a majority (yes, you disagree, i heard you.)
Your next prime minister doesn't want peace: all his blabbering about "economic peace" is simply about avoiding talking about real peace negotiations.
This article is interesting. Basically, we're going further and further away from a negotiated settlement, towards a sequence of Israeli unilateral moves that will de facto consolidate the occupation while potentially lessening its blatant colonialist aspects - by dismantling a couple of silly outposts and actually annexing the main settlement blocs; and maintaining a puppet - read: PA - government in place.
And by "one office to talk to" - I meant that, at a time, there is only one 'lead player' on the Israeli side (the gov); as opposed to the Palestinian side now, with the PA and Hamas splitting the influence and hence both being simultaneous necessary interlocutors to anyone serious about negotiating a peace agreement.
Plus we both know that the 'unofficial' talks are worthless. The only thing left of the Geneva Agreement is the occasional "Ken Leheskem!" conference at the Tel Aviv museum, complete with their empty speeches and non-kosher sandwiches.
Khaled:
Tragic. And funny. Thanks mate. :)
Helen in London:
Well thank you for the kind compliments!
I do hope I turn out to be overly pessimistic...
But it seems to me the 2-states solution is really dead.
If Yisrael Beitenu does come in second after Likud and before Kadima in the next elections, I'll be doing an "I-told-you-so!" dance.
I'm already rehearsing, just in case I'm right. :)
And I don't think the US will exert any pressure on Israel - because of internal pressure on the US administration(s).
Hmmm. Damn. I am pessimistic... :)
Jeff
Thank you for visiting the blog!
I really try to build a real discussion - a 2-way one, rather than a monologue..
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't; sometimes it's the counterpart's stubbornness, sometimes my own.
But we try to talk. And listen. Still better than resort to guns, right?
:)
And this is Lieberman TV promo for his election campaign. For those who claim that the average israeli isn't more Lieberman than Rabin , how do you explain his rising power? How do you explain the super fascist opinions in the promotional campaigns? Whether they are the Habayt Hayahoudi, Shas, Haehud Haleumi, Israel Betenou, Likud and last and not least Kadima.
I wonder what would happen if this happened... Any ideas? Does this like more more Rabin than Lieberman ?.
Another interesting video.
Sorry to have vanished--computer burn-out and other issues....
If Lieberman wins or comes in second, you can thank Hamas...which is why I think they started it in the first place (ok, I know we disagree on who started it, but bear with me--I think Hamas would've used any excuse) because the point isn't so much to fight Israel--the point is to beat Fatah, and toppling the PA by undercutting the peace process requires first getting rid of Livni, who reportedly has promised to divide Jerusalem and evacuating 60,000 Jews from the West Bank....if that were to kick-start a final status agreement with the PA, Hamas would be out in the cold, hence the need to pick a fight to ensure that the Israeli electorate moves Rightward and doesn't elect Livni as PM.
Mohammed, in answer to your earlier question: First, yes, we need to keep the faith and keep working towards a future peace; and second, Hamas holds a lot of cards -- IF they renounce violence and recognize Israel in return for Israel's recognition of Hamas, then we have the start of a two-way dialogue -- which in turn can lead to open borders, a new airport, new infrastructure---but we need to reach a political and emotional equilibrium where both sides recognize each other and work from there.
Khaled--what would happen if Israel totally left Gaza alone? I dunno but we've all figure that because of the Hamas charter, they would feel compelled to build and airport and then use it to advance their military aims. We'd rather not find out the hard way. Although I admit I would like to see Palestine have its own industry and inport/export ability--much healthier for both of us. emotionally, nationally and economically. But we need, ifnot 'peace' then at least a detente first.
BTW, we're neighbors--maybe next time Mohammed is in town he can introduce us (he's promised to show me East Jerusalem) and we can drink coffee together?
Helen--thank you for your stereotyping of Israeli Jews en masse. Britain is full of Jew haters, so I'll try to make allowances for your racism--you probably don't know any better.
Actually the majority of Israelis think a Palestinian state is in our interests so long as the Palestinians are agreeable to recognizing that a Jewish state is equally okay; I don't know any Israeli "Arab haters" although I can assume that "haters" and "racists" show up in all segments of all populations--from what I read in English newspapers, your country is full of them.
We're not interested in peace because of "American aid" -- which is really nothing more than a line of credit to buy American weapons. We're interested in peace because we would rather spend our money on things like improving our school systems, and because we'd like to rid ourselves of the necessity for every kid to go into the military and give up three years of his/her life instead of going to college immediately after graduation from high school.
And maybe the global economic downturn will make the Europeans come to their senses and stop throwing money at Hamas to buy more and more Grads to kill us with.
Mo
I understand your desire to undermine Israel's security even in such minor ways.
But then again... Palestinian national purpose - destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jewish people - will never be realized. There will be a two-state solution no matter what you do. And it'll be realized by an impenetrable border. Hopefully without any kinds of crossings, but that's probably too much to ask for.
And then the Arabs can continue engaging in their tribal wars, honor killings and horrifying self-oppression without Israel.
Khaled
My point exactly. More eloquently. :)
That Kadima - and center-right party - be the "pro-peace" alternative to a very-very-right-wing gov is scary.
The link to the stats is dead, btw. This is a new one.
Aliyah06
Welcome back!! Sorry about the computer :(
Thank Hamas. Hmmm. So 1300 Palestinians are murdered in Gaza: Hamas' fault. The Gaza strip is completely destroyed: it's Hamas' fault.
1300 Lebanese died, Beirut was bombed: Hezbollah's fault.
And now, Lieberman does fabulously well in elections, and it's Hamas' fault.
Silly me, who thought the Israeli people had any influence on their own lives. Of course.
Re: dialogue: you do realise that the preconditions you're putting are basically saying "I refuse to engage in peace and will blame it on the other guy".
Peace is made with the enemies. You need to give something in exchange for what you want.
Or is the exchange the threat of "we'll kill another 500 children if you don't" ?
If so - say it. Admit it. I'm sorry, but I am tired of the doublespeak.
The Europeans dont "throw money at Hamas to buy grads to kill you with". I mean, in Lieberman-land I'm sure they do.
In real life though they rebuild the infrastructure your country purposefully destroys. And they regularly complain that they're are tired of rebuilding it.
Perhaps that's your purpose? To get the Gazans to really live in darkness and to drink water mixed with sewage?
Abu,
If you knew how little the average Arab cared about your life, your death, your happiness, your sorrow, you wouldn't be going on your delusional trips where you assume that the "Palestinian national purpose" is the destruction of Israel.
We have grander projects than that, and more important things to worry about.
Seriously, dude.
Just, you know, free our land, take your jeeps out of my street, let our 12,000 kids and adults out of your prisons, and lech machayim shelanou. Really.
But you can't have, as they say here, "le beurre et l'argent du beurre" - the butter, and the butter's money.
(kinda like 'have the cake and eat it too' though i think this one makes no sense because if i have the cake, damn right I'm going to town on this bad boy).
Tell me, Abu - what do you think about Lieberman?
Mohammed, you know I don't want that....but look at it from the Israeli perspective for a minute. "End the occupation of Gaza and you'll have peace." "Leave Lebanon and you'll have peace."
NOT! And yes, it IS the fault of the party that starts the war--let's not invert recent history here. Hezbollah invaded Israel in order to kill and kidnap soldiers--they got return fire. Hamas has put hundreds of thousands of Israelis (including children) into bomb shelters and into a life of terror for years, and when the missile fire increased in numbers and range, they got return fire.
Yeah, Gaza got trashed. Many innocent people died (altho Hamas says the majority of people who died were their fighters). Innocent people died on our side of the border also.
No, my position isn't that I won't make peace. My position is that I'm sick of making concessions and being told its "not enough." The Palestinians have Gaza--do something with it besides turning it into a massive military theocratic dictatorship where war is preached as a way of life and killing Jews is considered honorable.
How about Hamas making some concessions--then we can start mutual dialogue and mutual concessions and ultimately detente (peace might be too much to wish for with warmongers like Hamas).
And regardless of the stated European intent, there is no accountability for the funds pouring into Gaza, and Grads aren't cheap. There's absolutely no significant improvement in Gaza's infrastructure (sewage systems, wastewater treatment, desalinization, new power stations, etc.) since Hamas took over--but they have millions for arms, missiles, tunnel boring equipment, rocket launchers. etc....I say 'stated intent' because the Europeans invented Jew-killing for sport, and it wouldn't bother them one bit if Hamas finished what Hitler started. They're racists who sit around drinking tea and complimenting themselves on their 'culture' after having enslaved most of the world and manipulated the economies and borders of nations to their advantage. I don't think its that they're tired of paying for infrastructure--I think they're tired of paying the Palestinians and not getting the desired result: the end of Israel.
"If you knew how little the average Arab cared about your life, your death, your happiness, your sorrow, you wouldn't be going on your delusional trips where you assume that the "Palestinian national purpose" is the destruction of Israel.
We have grander projects than that, and more important things to worry about. "
LOL, if you were right, the Arabs wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to kill us. And oh, "free our land" equals "dismantle Israel and kill yourselves" in Palestinian - Israelis had a long time to learn that. No thank you. Palestinians are not going back to the ancient Arab metropolis of Tel Al-Rabi.
And as for "taking our jeeps out of your street" - gladly! Just stop trying to kill us and then we won't have to prevent you from doing so.
"let our 12,000 kids and adults out of your prisons" - ah, and let them go back to peacefully murdering Jews? Sure, why don't we give you nukes as well?
Look, in the real world, serious mistakes have a price. The Arabs tried to genocide us and destroy our state many a time. And they still hope to achieve this noble goal. Palestinians included. Do you think this is something we can just ignore? We can just let your merry murderers get on with it?
No way. Just accept it. We're not going to commit mass suicide and the Arabs are too weak to kill us. We're home and we're here to stay.
As for Lieberman, he's a lousy and incompetent politician. He'd be a complete disaster as, say, Prime Minister or anyone of undue direct influence. But in principle, I agree with him -
A state for the Palestinians regardless of what they want;
Addition to that state of the parts of Israel that are not Israel (Umm El-Fahem is Israeli like Baghdad is, and Jews have equal survival chances in both);
A long-term solution ensuring Israel's continued Jewish character;
And a general understanding that "land for peace" means "we'll give Arabs stuff to make it easier on them to kill us".
Because the moment they can, the Arabs will genocide us. And you know this, ya Mo. It'll be 135 CE all over again.
BTW, citing Simcha Flapan, a 4th string virtual unknown "historian" with little publication to his credit, undermines your arguments simply because of who he is: a Mapai propagandist who habitually dresses up his political agenda as "history" with a fine disregard of the facts. Benny Morris similarly misquoted Ben Gurion and, having somewhat better historian credentials than Flapan, got absolutely roasted by his peers for distorting the historical record. Flapan is such a nonentity that no one bothers with his drivel. As one well respected journal put it:
"Recently declassified documents in Israeli and Western archives fail to confirm the picture of the origins of the Arab-Israeli conflict painted by the new historians. The self-styled new historiography is really a "distortiography." It is anything but new: much of what it presents is old and much of the new is distortion. The "new historians" are neither new nor true historians but rather partisans seeking to give academic respectability to longstanding misconceptions and prejudice on the Arab-Israeli conflict. To borrow the words of the eminent British historian E.H. Carr, what the new historians are doing is to "write propaganda or historical fiction, and merely use facts of the past to embroider a kind of writing which has nothing to do with history." (see Carr's 'What Is History?', Penguin Books)
Does the Palestinian cause really need liars and spinmeisters to justify it? I rather believed the Palestinians had a right to self-determination in their own right, without needing the myths and apologia of the condescending Leftists whose real agenda is not the establishment of a Palestinian state but the end of the Jewish one.
"taking our jeeps out of your street" - gladly! Just stop trying to kill us and then we won't have to prevent you from doing so."
Abu Saar, in order not to get killed, you could just leave the West Bank alone, withdraw the settlements. Then you didn't need to prevent extremist from trying to kill settlers.
"There will be a two-state solution no matter what you do." I hope you're right, but Mohamed is hardly the big obstacle, the settlements and Likud are. If you're voting Bibi, he'll try to prevent the two state solution.
You have a bad tendency of blaming everyone else except the Israelis, Racoon. I'd advise you to read more. The Economist and Haaretz are both good sourses of info.
Reegarding the arabs, I think I've told you this before: you're paranoid. Just because you fear and loathe arabs, don't mean all arabs fear and loath you. Nizo seems to like you, and so does Mohamed- at least enough not to block you out.
have a nice day, Helen in London
Helen - oh yes, withdrawal worked so well with Gaza. And the monsters trying to murder random civilians anywhere they can in Israel will just stop once we withdraw even further, right? Maybe if we remove the security barrier that's stopping them, or refrain from stopping them before they reach Israel, maybe then they'll just leave us alone?
"Extremists" killing "settlers"? You mean "representatives of every significant Palestinian organization" killing "random Israeli civilians wherever they can"?
You keep presuming that anyone not sharing of your delusional idiocy is, in turn, an ignorant idiot. You're wrong. This is not a new attitude and you're not the first to exhibit it. It's always and invariably wrong, a form of ad-hominem logical fallacy.
And I do not fear nor loathe the Arabs. I am indifferent to them as such, despite not wanting them to kill me and despite finding much of their culture barbaric.
As for Likud's attitude to a two-state solution: frankly, it doesn't matter much. The economy is much more important. We lose by far more people in road accidents nowadays than we do to Arab terror. As long as Likud will continue to build the security barrier and give nothing tangible for something intangible (and nonexistent in the case of Arab Peace), I'm OK with them regarding Palestinians. We won't have peace - I at least want security.
The greatest problem with Likud is them lacking a solid educational reform plan.
About the Gaza withdrawal, the problem was that Israel never reached an agreement with Fatah. They left the strip, but kept control over the borders, the sea and the land. If you have withdrawal without coming to an agreement and control the other parts resources, then it's not a proper withdrawal. But obviously I'm not getting through to you - I can only advice you (not order you) to do some reading.
ok, if you don't believe palestinian terrorism is a big problem,if you don't really believe in the peace process at all, why do even discuss the situation? Why not discussing economics or education on some other blog?
And finally, you do fear and loathe arabs. You've written things like the're gonna take over Europe, rape my wife etc. You even insult their culture on a blog written by an arab. That's hardly indifference, that's chutzpah.
Finally, an independant Palestinians state is in Israel's interest. If nothing happens soon, palestinians on the west bank will start demanding equal rights. Then you've got three options: ethnic cleansing, apartheid or a binational state with a jewish minority.
Helen - insult? Nay, I criticize. I have a low opinion on most cultures.
I discuss the situation partially out of habit - I used to believe peace was actually possible; partially because I have a perverse interest in the insane and the incorrigible; and partially because I adore Arab rhetoric.
And Muslims are going to take over Europe. Were you with them in London a few weeks ago, screaming "Jews to the ovens!"? Just look at the statistics. Denmark maybe still has a chance. Eastern Europe will probably remain free. But the West is overrun and soon to be outbred. Don't worry, you'll get to see public beheadings of infidels in Stockholm yet.
And the rate of rape by Muslim immigrants in Sweden is hundreds - if not thousands - percent above rate of rapes by Swedes. A good measure of how likely you are to be raped is the percentage of Muslims in your neighborhood. Where do most Muslims come from in Sweden?
In the Middle East and North Africa, Arab culture reigns supreme. Poor bastards. That culture is particularly violent and misogynic. Not uniquely so - I think Pathans or Chechens or someone take that title - but enough to be called "barbaric".
Your mistaken opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been noted.
Well, if you feel that way, you and your family can only do well in staying away from Europe. No worries, you probably wouldn't like it, too much culture. :D
In Sweden, we do have more crime among immigrants than among Swedes, but presume that muslims are lurking away in the bushes, waiting to rape innocent white girls.....that's to overreact a bit.
About the "barbaric" Chechyans...you're from Russia aren't you? According to Anna Politovskaja, who was killed in that sweet country, Russian soldiers was pretty damn barbaric....
Finally, my opinion on the Israeli palestinian conflict is hardly unique, it's shared by most europeans and most americans as well.
Helen in London
I am from Israel.
And yes, Russians are quite barbaric. They have a violent culture with a major nihilistic streak. The violence is, in fact, so ingrained into the said culture that Russians don't have a word for violence; it's self-evident. No wonder they are in decline: Spengler was wrong about them.
Palestinians, by the way, are more than welcome to demand equal rights from their government. I am sure Abbas will consider it. Or Haniyeh. Or whomever leads the biggest clan at that particular moment in time.
Helen dear,
Of course we love our dear Abu Sa'ar - the man is so full of raw hatred, pure and absolute racism, unabashed supremacism, the whole thing toppled with a generous dose of ignorance and a willingness to shun independent thinking and follow the flock, adopt the party line, invert truths, lie deliberately and otherwise, and willingness to discard both morality and law when it suits his arguments that it makes him the perfectly, perfectly average Israeli. I couldn't hope for better.
Racoon - keep going. Be yourself. You prove my point every time you open your mouth (or start typing, rather).
Much love to ya'all!
Ach, Mohamed, isn't it nice how everything falls so perfectly into your neat little categories?
Helen has the same amazing influence on reality, it seems.
"full of raw hatred" - I would have expected you to be better able to distinguish between hatred and not hatred. Actually, I know you are perfectly capable of making that distinction; the cheap shot is just too much to resist, isn't it? :)
"pure and absolute racism" - this is just another cheap shot. You know I couldn't care less about race (insomuch as it can be said to exist).
"unabashed supremacism" - supremacy of Raccoons over Humans, certainly. But I somehow suspect it's another cheap shot in the collection of clichéd cheap shots.
Especially when after rattling off a list of said clichés (basically calling me a "bad boo-boo") you top it off by saying your clichés represent the average Israeli. Brilliantly cynical :)
Thank you, thank you! (bows)
What's a bad boo-boo?
Mo -
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=boo+boo
:)
"Finally, my opinion on the Israeli palestinian conflict is hardly unique, it's shared by most europeans and most americans as well."
The last four words are utterly incorrect. There are some left-leaning Euro-wannabes in urban centers who cling to your racist rhetoric, but the majority of Americans are strong supporters of Israel in large part because they see us as similar to them -- poverty-stricken people who had to flee economic and religious persecution and discrimination by the ruling elites of Europe (now replaced by the clueless chattering classes of Radical Chic)--and Americans, who get quite upset when people bomb THEIR country, understand the concept of "return fire" in response.
As for your inane comment here: "In Sweden, we do have more crime among immigrants than among Swedes, but presume that muslims are lurking away in the bushes, waiting to rape innocent white girls.....that's to overreact a bit. " -- check out the statistics. You can Google "Muslim rape statistics" and find out that 85% of convicted rapists in the Scaninavian countries are Moslem immigrants; they do target native women because in their words, they're "whores" because they go unveiled and have probably 'fucked before' so, so what if you force them to have sex? The rapes themselves are violent, oftentimes gang rapes with badly beaten victims; women are afraid to go outside at night; some families are emigrating to Canada because they feel the police cannot contain the problem. Your casual dismissal of women's victimization here makes it very clear that your pseudo-liberal posturing is sheer hypocrisy: feminists defend women, not their rapists. And certainly not rapists who justify their rapes with "They're Swedes, not decent Moslem girls, so they deserved it."
A very relevant Q&A with Khaled Abu Toameh at MJT.
Do you really want to go about comparing yourself to people whose ancestors massacred the indiginous population of the americas, drove them from their homes, stole their land, and then clustered the remaining in glorified ghettoes deemed "reservations"? Doesn't really seem to be the way to go in order to make a point. But now that you mention, it I do see the similarities now.
And you suppose its better to compare ourselves to the indigenous racists of Europe, that gasping derelict of moral relativism which prances around proclaiming its enlightened sensitivity, humanity and culture? "European culture" is a total fraud which has raped and colonized the world, stolen or destroyed the cultural artifacts of nearly every civilization it has encountered (note to the Brits: the Greeks would like their stolen pieces of the Parthenon back, thank you), enslaved their peoples, trampled their civilizations into the dust (remember the Aztecs?) and destroyed their religions, languages and family systems; carved the world into little cantons controlled by European countries (i.e the "Belgian" Congo, for example; "French Guinea" and so forth). The post-World War One European grab for oil created the current bounderies of the Middle East and the resulting problems can be laid at the feet of ruthless French and British interests. European governments and NGOs continue to meddle and peddle influence in their never-ending attempt to make non-Europeans (here or elsewhere) dance to their tune.
Remember also that the American theft of Indian land and reservations was nothing more than a continuation of French and British policy which polities had spawned the 13 Colonies and Canada...and which continued to draw immigrants from Europe who shared that wonderous European world-view that the whole world was theirs for the taking. If it belonged to someone else (whether a Jewish business in York (since Jews were never considered Europeans) or an Aztec village or an Egyptian artifact from the time of the Pharoahs, well, hey, it was clearly intended to be owned by the self-appointed Lords of the Earth, the G-d-Is-An-Englishman British (or French or Germans or Spaniards, depending in which colony you were enslaved and stolen from)so they simply took it--and if you got in the way, they killed you.
Ah, and in more recent times, let's not forget the Evian Conference or the Holocaust--the cultured French! The people famous among my people for being the first to round up Jews before the Nazis even asked them to! People who today trample on the rights of Moslem school girls to wear hijab (hey, they get to wear hijab to school in Israel and the US--what's wrong with you European elitists?) The people who stood by during the Holocaust and did nothing; the people who stood by during the Rwanda genocide and did nothing; the people who stood by during the massacres of Cambodia and did nothing.
There's saying in the US that applies well to Europeans: Big Talk, No Action. You're always talking yourselves up so smugly about how enlightened and wonderful you are. You're not--you're hypocrites who preach but don't practice: 1.the entire British Navy went to war over some lousy windblown islands called the Falklands; 2. the British had no problem suspending civil liberties, arresting without cause, imprisoning, torturing and killing Irish Catholics who MIGHT be tangentially connected to someone who might be connected to someone who put a bomb in a garbage can in London; 3. not one of you is protesting the massacres of Tamil civilians or Congolese civilians these past months but then, there's NO OIL in Sri Lanka or the Congo, is there?!
Yes, compare us to the Americans, to the Arabs, to the Chinese, to anyone, but NOT the feckless hypocritical thieves and racists of Europe. You are a morally bankrupt society whose pretensions of grandeur would be funny if they weren't so dangerous.
When the IRA blows up YOUR garbage cans, you can justify any horrendous, illegal, despicable action to stop them, but you are the first to tell Israel to live with rockets falling on our towns.
Aliyah, you're pretty rude.
I believe your occupation is wrong. I also belive in a two state solution, much like "Peace now" or the Aylon Nusseibeh initative. This is hardly unique, more and more people are talking about tne necessity of a palestinian state.
And yes, we do have problems with some immigrants, due to stupid political decisions, mainly to much socialism with high taxes. This makes it difficult for immigrants (and some Swedes)to get jobs. Sweden should learn from the US, we've noting to be pride about there. But to say that muslim men per se are rapist is simply wrong. There are plenty crimes among indigenious Swedes in the same social class as well. But if you don't believe that, be glad then you're in Israel. Apparently Israel is a light of morality that should serve as an example to us all. Oh well.
Helen in London
I'm not quite sure what's up with all the "you're, you, you are" etc Aliyah. I'm not even European, so really, get a grip woman. Regardless of what you think about Europeans, you're country has managed to transform magnificently into what you claim to hate and despise, which you actually don't deny. Congratulations. (And it's nice to see how you've managed to quite neatly overlook the fact that you yourself are of european descent so by all means continue with your self hatred and self insults. And since your post indicates that you are into collective guilt for past actions, your current domicile really doesn't change the fact that all the atrocities you're lamenting still fall rather squarely on your own european ancestors heads so please spare me the melodramatics)
"...you can justify any horrendous, illegal, despicable action to stop them"
So now you're agreeing that what your government did was horrendous, illegal, and despicable and are justifying it by saying the British did and would do the same? How exactly is that a good defense?
"I believe your occupation is wrong. " I believe the Occupation is a bleeding wound which is a tragedy for Israelis and Palestinians alike. Most Israelis support a two-state solution, although we are getting almost as frustrated as the Palestinians about how to get from here to there; all it takes is one act of terror to undo whatever progress has crept slowly forward. Do you also believe that unrelenting terrorism from the 1920s until today against Jews is wrong? That's what started the "Occupation"--Jordan's and Egypt's historic sponsorship of war and terror, and Arafat's prolongation of the same as a political tool.
"But to say that muslim men per se are rapist is simply wrong." I didn't say this. I went to college with many Moslem friends and counted them among my good friends-I almost married one of them-I would never say something that outrageous. You've read something into what I wrote that simply isn't there. I said to go look at the statistics on rape in Scandainavian countries, a region that previously had very little rape and now has an epidemic of it. It has little to do with being Moslem--it has a lot to do with the cultural baggage that comes with Moslem immigrants (such as the frequent statements along the lines that women who aren't veiled are somehow asking to be raped and/or they're Swedes and therefore not virgins and therefore whores so its okay) and the subsequent conflict with European easy morality.
I walk around Jerusalem by myself at night. Do you walk around London by yourself at night? I doubt it. The Europeans get hostility and violence from an unassimilated immigrant population because you, in your hubris, demand that they conform to European standards and become "Europeanized," surrendering their cultural norms, putting their religion in the closet where it won't make you "uncomfortable" and generally assimilating. Then, in France, Denmark and Holland anyway, you don't give them jobs except stoop-labor work your own enlightened European children won't do.
And you wonder why they're angry? Why men are acting out this way against Scandinavian women? Perhaps all you 'enlightened humanists" in Europe should start treating your Moslem immigrants like people instead of treating them the way Blacks used to get treated in the South of the US.
Then you can get on your soap-boxes and preach to the rest of the world how we should act -- but clean up your own act first. Until then, keep your snide little sarcasms on a leash -- you're hardly the beacon of enlightenment you pretend to be.
Darya--define what makes me "European"?
We were Jews -- we were NEVER "European" -- Jews had NO citizenship, no civil liberties, no standing in any European political construct until Napolean conquered Europe and gave us citizenship--which rights and privileges were promptly revoked in 1846 by most European nations. We lived apart--with our own calendar, our own language, our own non-European culture and customs. We were subject to expulsion, rape, and mass-murder and had no standing in any court of law or remedy against injustice.
No, we didn't have any say in the conquest of the Americas, or the treatment of the native peoples...as a matter of fact, Jews weren't allowed any part of the European political process until the very late 1800s or early 1900s, depending on the European country in question. US government agencies also frowned on Jewish employees, as did financial institutions (I can remember my grandfather's fear that the bank would find out he was a Jew and fire him)and colleges had quotas to keep us out.
So, no, I feel no collective responsibility for the actions of governments which never gave my family a voice in affairs or even basic civil liberties.
So, no, Darya, I'm not of "European descent" at all--my family was kicked out of Spain and driven to the Balkans and from there, once the Turks lost their grip, to Russia on one side of the family. Another branch of the family has lived in what is today Israel since the 1800s or before (our records only go back to the 1800s). Just how does any of this make me "European?" Other than your wishful thinking that all Israeli Jews be of "European descent" so you can trash them as 'colonizers' -- instead of the truth, which is that most Israeli Jews are Mizrachi or Sephardi or Temeni descent, and very Middle Eastern in origin.
Oh, I think you're European, Darya--or of European descent. Your English is marvelous so my guess is that you were raised in Britain or Canada. Perhaps ethnically you're not European? But then, neither am I.
"So now you're agreeing that what your government did was horrendous, illegal, and despicable and are justifying it by saying the British did and would do the same?" I didn't say this -- no, I just thought your hyperbole was so patently ridiculous it didn't merit a response. There are no reservations in the Territories; there are no blankets laced with smallpox and TB being handed out to the Palestinians; Olmert recently offered 95% of the West Bank back to Abbas with an offer of border adjustments to make up the difference--I can't ever recall the US or Canda offering the Native Americans anything comparable. If you want to engage in serious discussion here, by all means do so, but your sarcastic sound-bytes and total cluelessness, coupled with your racism, is tiresome.
------------
No, Helen, I'm not rude. I'm simply direct.
Ok Alyah, you're rude and direct and you seem to have like a gigantic chip on your shoulder.
But I'm glad you don't hate moslems, but you did made and impression of it.
But if you don't like my remarks, I can only suggest you don't read them.
Secondly, sure, perhaps we have hubris, yes. We sure treat our immigrants bad, but You Israelis don't exactly treat the israeli arabs well, nor the palestinians. I'd say that Europe is far ahead of Israel when it comes to human rights-feel free to disagree.
So don't go to Europe if you dislike us so much, don't get upset my remarks, and walk as long as you like in Jerusalem.
Helen i London
Uhhh, so being able to speak english properly makes one european? You do realize that half the world's population would thereby be classified as european right? You're kind of odd. I am Canadian actually, 1st gen. Born in the M.E. but lived there since I was 6
And what racism are you talking about. The only racism being demonstrated here is by people like you who were born and raised in America but still think that belonging to a "special" religion gives you the right to claim a land that your family has literally no ties to (Oops, excuse me, they may or may not have lived there 5000 years ago, but you really have no idea seeing as how you're family is of European ancestory).
So what does that make you in your odd classification system, Darya? Are you "Middle Eastern" or are you "Canadian"? It becomes an interesting question -- does the fact that my grandfather was born in the Ottoman Empire's sanjak of Jerusalem make ME Middle Eastern, or does one have to be born here? If the latter is the rule, then the descendents of every Palestinian living abroad in the Americas and Europe are clearly no longer Palestinian. How about my cousins in Petach Tikveh, who have been here for generations? Do THEY have a claim? If so, when does 'claiming' start? What if you are one of the Israelis who are born here? Regardless of generation? Since the majority of Israelis today are native born and the children of native born, do they have a claim in your odd categorizing?
No, Darya, I'm no more European than you are.....my family were always Middle Easterners and the Europeans never let us forget it.
Apart from snipes at Judaism, which you clearly know nothing about, the "claim" to have a country here is based on the League of Nations and subsequent UN resolutions giving us our own country here on the grounds that Jews living here after the collapse of the Turkish empire had a right to self-determination (like the Palestinians, like the Kosovars, like the Lebanese, like the Slovakians, etc. etc.)and a state of our own. Like the rest of the world.
The racism I'm talking about is that of your ilk which applauds the self-determination of every group in the world EXCEPT that of the Jews. The racism I'm talking about is your double-standard. The racism I'm talking about re: Europeans generally is their entrenched attitude that they are the most cultured, most civilized, most wonderful, manifestly destined to run the world--better than 'those people' whoever those people at the moment might be (and sometimes its other Europeans). Or haven't you noticed that despite jumping through a zillion hoops, France and Germany are still trying to keep Turkey out of the EU? Because, well, Turks are "middle eastern" (shh, and Moslem) and we don't want 'their kind' in our club.
Canadian, huh? And do YOU take personal responsibility for the theft of Native American lands and the rape of Native culture in Canada? Bet not.
As for the first question, its the style of your English--not that you 'speak' it, because many do, but even foreign speakers don't write English like native speakers do (although Mohamed is brilliant and can).
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