Before the first body count was completed, the Israeli media and blogosphere were dusting and using the same pre-packaged pseudo-arguments used to justify Israeli action whenever it wreaks havoc in
1/ Yes, 320 people died, but they were terrorists and they deserved it.
UNRWA’s estimation is that at least 62 of those are civilians, given ‘conservative’ estimations based on surveys of hospitals.
BUT John Holmes, UN Undersecretary general, explains: “"That simply encompasses those who are women and children. It does not include any civilian casualties who are men - even though we know that there have been some civilian men killed as well."
So we’re talking 62 women and children. Just them. Remember that.
No civilian estimations among the 1400 injured - at least 750 of them seriously so - were released.
(on a secondary note: the definition of a ‘non-civilian’ is very unclearl it generally includes 'Hamas members and supporters'. Also worth pondering.)
2/ The civilians who died were collateral damage;
Right. So the blockade was supposed to starve the Hamas people, while the rest of
Regarding this war: while the first strikes reportedly hit military stations and security forces, they rapidly expanded to include houses, roads, hospitals and medical centres, mosques (where 5 sisters were murdered), police stations and government building. And the University.
(speaking of the University, here is how BBC News justifies it: “... and a science building at the Islamic University in
Awesome justification!! Thank you, BBC, for the skillful whitewash!
I will also have you notice that the strikes on Saturday - Day 1 of the
3/
First, incursions never stopped, ever since the ‘Disengagement’. Second, I will remind you that
Imagine a really big guy sitting on the rib cage of the skinny dude. And as he comfortably readjusts his position, crushing the dude’s thorax, he reads a magazine. Would he really be minding his own business? Reeeeeally?
Because of the blockade,
Not even humanitarian food and medical aid: “UNRWA alone feeds approximately 750,000 people in
4/ “Since
Okay, stop right here. Withdrew? True, there used to be a bunch of wackos living in settlements in
That was a self-serving move: they didn’t do it to “give Gazans a chance for peace/independence/becoming
Of course, since the legislative elections of 2006 when Hamas won, the blockade was upped. No money was allowed to flow in, and banks were threatened if they were to transfer money inside the Palestinian territory. Since the summer ’07 mini-civil war and the control of Fatah over the WB, this siege ended in the WB; it has remained in the GS.
And it’s only gotten worse in the past several months. (see argument 3).
5/ The Qassams are creating severe damage in
In the past eight years, eighteen Israelis have died because of rockets launched from inside the Gaza Strip. These rockets are crude, have poor aim, and most have poor ranges.
Since the Israeli disengagement in 2005, “about 150 Palestinians have been killed by its security forces in the territory for every dead Israeli civilian.” (The Daily Telegraph). The article adds: “Faced with this astonishing ratio,
Yep.
So, Qassams creating damage? Yes, absolutely.
Probably less damage than accidents caused by migrating geese, but yeah, sure.
6/ Hamas bears the full responsibility for the current crisis
“Yes, Hamas provoked
Robert Fisk
Hmmm, nope. For sure, Hamas bears a good chunk of responsibility. In a sense, it reminds me of the joke with the drunken mouse who would go to the sleeping lion, pull its whiskers, and say “Ana gada3!” (“I’m the big guy here!”).
It has also misled the Gazans into thinking the Hamas had decent defensive capabilities, for when the sh*t hit the fan.
Fatah also, by its now legendary impotence, holds a responsibility. Abbas’ barely concealed hatred for the Hamas people and his refusal to resolve the intra-Pal conflict, preferring Palestinians to die by Israeli hands rather than actually talk to them, is disgusting and also at blame.
Yet this taken into consideration, the above are actually secondary responsibilities, or derived consequences of the main culprit’s actions.
The main responsibility lies in the hands of the Israeli state. Israeli imposed collective punishment on
It is ludicrous to blame Hamas for what’s going on when the Israeli actions against Gaza have, at best, been part of a circle of confrontation with Hamas, or at worst on an independent path guided by various military or politics motivations (February elections, anyone?)
7/ “Hamas are terrorists. We cannot negotiate with terrorists!”
Well, aside from one man’s terrorist being another’s freedom fighter (or Army)...
Not that long ago, a terrorist organisation called the Palestinian Liberation Organisation secretly met with the Israeli government in
If
8/ The Qassams are nerve-wrecking and scare the children of Sderot.
True. And sincerely sad. And I wish no child had to go through that.
I don’t really need to tell you about the psychological damage caused to Palestinian children, though. (Check the Gaza Community Mental Health Programme, directed by Dr. Eyad Sarraj for more information on that.)
But I will ask you this: how do you justify ‘mass murder’ by ‘scared children’?
31 comments:
Pure demagoguery.
I like the story with the drunken mouse. I liken it to a 97-pound weakling who keeps punching Mohamed Ali in the nose. And then cries "foul!" when the boxer hauls off and decks him.
I wonder if there are certain things we can agree on, and certain things we might have to "agree to disagree" on ?
For example, I would suggest we agree to the following:
1) Whether it's an occupation or siege, the Gazans have legitimate complaints about how they have been and are being treated by the Israelis
2) It is to be expected that after 8,000 rockets -- and dozens a day in the days leading up to the attack on Gaza -- that there would be some kind of military response, and some kind of military response is justifiable.
3) Loss of life and living in fear is a bad thing, whether the victims are Palestinian or Israeli.
Where do we disagree?
1) Was Hamas stupid to shoot rockets at a militarily much superior foe?
2) Is the Israeli attack excessive and inappropriate, or legitimate self-defense?
3) Is it immoral for Hamas to intentionally target civilians?
4) Is it immoral for Israel to kill a lot of civilians while targeting terrorists?
We will all feel a natural affinity for our brethren, and it may be that even people of good will and good faith will not be able to agree on the points on which we disagree.
But maybe it doesn't matter. Given the points we agree on, we can all work together to pressure whoever we can pressure to call a mutual ceasefire and to try and bring peace to all.
Mohammad .... Excellent Post.
What most of the israelis don't really understand the meaning of occupation? Occupation isn't limited to occupation of land. When 100% of the aspects of your life is being controlled by the other, then you are Under Occupation. When you cannot travel outside 360 km2 of land, then you are under occupation. When all the medical, food and fuel supplies and controlled by the "Other" then you are under occupation.
We seem to forget the sad storry of the people who are currently living in Gaza. These people are refugees who were forcibly exported from their homeland towards the Gaza strip. Moreover, the israelis seem to forget the bloody history of their heros. David Ben Gurion, Yitzhak Rabin and Yitzhak Shameer (who authorized the assassination of the United Nations representative in the Middle East, Count Folke Bernadotte who was seen by Shamir and his collaborators as an anti-Zionist and "an obvious agent of the British enemy", and eventually killing the very first effort towards peace in the middle east).
I wonder if anyone in the Gaza strip would ever manage to remain calm and be pacifist in light of everything they have suffered from.
محمد لقد اسمعت لو ناديت حيا ولكن لا حياة لمن تنادى
Since this is a debunking post I would like to do some debunking of my own, or at least clarify some of Israel's motives & interests to those clueless out there.
Warning: This will be a non-PC logical analysis (or attempt to be), so it probably won't me pleasant to read, nonetheless, I am willing to give it a try. I apologize if this is a bit long, but I am trying to make my points clearly as possible, even if you don’t agree with them.
1. Israel is over-exaggerating the damages of Kassams attacks, which are puny and non-significant.
News-flash: It is not the physical damage or sporadic causalities (although each loss of life is of course significant) that make Israel see Kassam attacks as so important. Its two things: Disruption and precedent.
Disruption means that Kassams make large swathes of the country grind to a standstill; Those areas affected have tourism, industry, schools, etc' rendered inoperable under the attacks, and this doesn’t require any real damage - only that people be confined to their shelters. With Kassams already covering some of Israel's main port-cities and inching closer to Israel’s center, this is intolerable.
Precedence means organizations like Hamas, Hizb. Are always searching for the maximum irritation level Israel will withstand without lashing out. Not responding means more daring attacks, longer range missiles etc’ until Israel is forced to respond - so why wait?
This means it is logical for Israel to respond as aggressively as possible to the smallest possible irritation. This logic has, unfortunately, proven itself correct through the Lebanon wars (both), before, during, and after the Intifadas, and so on.
2. Israel’s actions are only aggravating Palestinians further by increasing their suffering and strengthening the extremists further.
Palestinians cannot be aggravated further, simply because they have reached their 100% level of hate quite some time ago. The reasons for this are numerus, with the most important one already posted by Khaled in his previous comment: Gazans are refugees because of Israel’s creation, probably will never forgive that and understandably so.
Israel is not seeking Gaza to become pacifist or calm, become Zionist of Jeudeo-philiac. A nice, cold, blazing-with-hatred but stable truce (with no sporadic shelling!) will suit us just fine. The Gazans will have to make do with that as Israel simply cannot give them what they want in order to become calm, and that is cease to exist.
3. Israel withdrawal from Gaza was not a withdrawal at all, just morphing the occupation to another form.
Israel, or rather Sharon had three objectives with the disengagement plan:
- Get international recognition of end of Gaza occupation
- Prove the Gazans, left to their own devices, cannot manage themselves in a responsible matter and thus ease the pressure off Israel from withdrawing from the WB
- Drive a wedge between WB and Gaza, forcing them into two separate entities rather than one.
The latter two objectives were achieved nicely, Hamas is recognized as a terrorist group by the EU, US, Palestinians divided as ever, nobody talking of anymore disengagement plans from the WB.
Israel did fail in having occupation of Gaza declared over, since when it became clear Israel was facing another south Lebanon in Gaza, damage control (in Israeli perspective) meant attempting to limit Hamas “growth” by harsh restrictions on border traffic, hoping the inside pressure will topple Hamas (that failed quite miserably).
The Gazans COULD HAVE TOPPLED SHARON”S PLAN, by proving him wrong on his assumptions. Instead they almost ran themselves over by electing Hamas, ever-increasing cross-border shelling, even destroying the facilities the Israelis left behind (like the vast greenhouses which the Europeans paid for so Gaza will have some exporting infrastructure).
I am not saying Gazans should have become passive sheep or Pacifist Betniks, only act a little bit more rationally.
However, rational thinking seems to be a rare commodity in the Arab world in general and Palestinians in particular.
G
if I may continue G. :
4. Israel continues the occupation by intentionally and un-rationally closing the passages from Israel and the sea to the Gaza Strip.
Well, go back to the time just after the Hamas came into power. The Erez industry area was open and the passages were open. Why were they closed? Hamas and Jihad terrorists repeatedly commmitted terrorist attacks against these places (which brought work and supplies to the GAZA strip). It's quite a shame that the Israelis could not withhold themselves to a few dead every now and then, Just so the terrorists could try hurting them again...
Y.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2002/Apprehension%20of%20ambulance%20harboring%20a%20wanted%20terro
"Gazans are refugees because of Israel’s creation, probably will never forgive that and understandably so. " is fair enough for me.
Anyway, I am watching Israel Channel 2 and 10. It is obvious that Israel and its military commentators are beginning to back off their initial expectations that Hamas was significantly hit during the first surprising strikes. Roni Daniel (Channel 2) for example said "a land operation may have a bigger effect". The human population and Hamas Police in the Gaza strip were the biggest losers so far. I am not a supporter for Islamic Jihad or Hamas, but it is very obvious that they have a truly wide user base in Gaza Strip, if Israel occupied the gaza strip they will probably end arresting half million. If israel didn't stop the rockets towards israel, Hamas will end becoming victorious. Personally, I don't think that this can be achieved without a truce at which Hamas didn't look as if they have backed off from their initial requests for the public opinion. I am afraid that this is going no where.
Excellent argumentation Mohammed.
I am no fan of Hamas myself but I cannot tolerate the position of perpetual victim adopted by Israel.
Also, I would have liked to see this coming from an Israeli Jew. Followin th thoughts of he majority of Israeli bloggers, it is clear that he right wing populist discourse dominates.
Joseph
www.arabdemocracy.com
Joseph;
I can only represent myself and not other Bloggers, if take care to read my previous comment (the one signed G) you can see for yourself I am not trying for victim-hood.
That honor belongs to the Palestinians, and I accuse them of loving their victim-hood so much they don’t want to let it go for mundane things like normalization and compromise. Much better to keep fantasizing on dream-like visions of peaceful, green pastured, totally Arab, rural Palestine, long gone, if it ever existed in that form.
.
As for Lefies vs. Righties in Israel, I suppose I could be called a leftie for being a long time supporter and voter for Meretz, and for believing Israel should retreat from most of the WB and give the Palestinians a real shot in achieving statehood.
However, like many others like me, I am very disappointed by the Palestinians unwillingness to compromise, how they foiled the post-disengagement chance they were given in Gaza to start building the foundations for a real state. I am disappointed from how Palestinians ALWAYS seem to prefer and mortally damage their own interests for the smallest chance of, even only symbolically, striking against Israel, and how little responsibility they show for their own kin. I agree with what one commenter said on a different post, that it is blood revenge and honor which the Palestinians seek, not compromise or peace.
It took the Israeli left an enormous effort and sacrifice to push the Oslo accords by a skeptic right wing Israeli public. Rabin paid with his life, the Labour party paid by becoming marginalized and the Israeli left was decimated.
Where are you, Palestinian moderate silent majority(?) When will we see a Palestinian leader willing to speak compromise in Arabic and not only in English, drag extremists out one by one by the hands and legs like Israel did in Gaza and Yamit? Tell the Palestinians square in the face they will not be returning to Ashkelon or Haifa or Acco or Jaffa?
Yes Khaled, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians lost their ancestral homes in 48’, because Israel was created but no less because Israel expanded in a war you declared. The Palestinians wagered everything against an historical compromise in 48’ believing they will win everything, but lost. If you cannot accept the consequences of that, there is little to talk about: Let Israel keep pounding and Palestinians keep shooting, then.
Sorry for the bleak note with which I am ending here, but I am not feeling particularly optimistic today, hoped Israel would go for a two-day truce before proceeding to give the Hamas one last chance of calling hostilities off, but it seems that is out..
G
G, it seems that you know little or nothing about what happened during 1948.
Yitzhak Rabin has done an expermiment on January 1948 (before the beginning of the war). He together with his camarades in the Palmach did an experiment of how easy it is to expel the palestinians from their land by occupying Caesarea. Almost all "Gosh Dan", Merkaz area was occupied before the declaration of the state and before the withdrawal of the british troops from Palestine. Too many palestinians were expelled and were attacked by the israeli army after the declaration of the state and during a truce which was declared.
Again, you seem to try to forget the Yitzhak Shamir killed (who authorized the assassination of the United Nations representative in the Middle East, Count Folke Bernadotte who was seen by Shamir and his collaborators as an anti-Zionist and "an obvious agent of the British enemy", and eventually killing the very first effort towards peace in the middle east).
I know this saying among israelis... "The arabs refused any peace proposal and therefore which have occupied and expelled people from their land".... I know that this would probably make you feel better from bearing the moral responsibility.... It is nothing but a lie that you enjoy living.
Dear G
I made sure to say 'the majorityof Israeli Bloggers'' and not 'All Israelis'.
Thank you for taking the time to at least attempt at discussion. I am fed up of Israelis talking of Arabs and Palestinians as childish irrational emotional beings who have to grow up and accept the Israeli version of the past and the future. Yes, you did evacuate Gaza, but only to manage it better through the blockade. You talk of peace but build settlements and encircle Jerusalem. You tell your Western supporters you want to live with us as neighbours but build a shameful wall within Palestinia land. You claim to suffer daily while selling your country as a safe tourist destination.
The only rational thing to do is to resist your occupation. Not necessarily the Hamas way, but resistance no less.
I wonder when the Israelis will realise that it is their arrogance and racism that defines the way they deal with the Palestinian issue. From where I stand it is them who need to grow up.
Regards
Joseph
Khaled;
I don’t want to get into a shouting match over 48', please give me the credit and presume that I am as well versed on the subject as yourself. (I can’t help myself but mention that Gush Dan, is, in fact wholly within the Jewish part of the 48’ partition plan).
It is also completely useless to have the tit-for-tat expulsion/massacre comparisons (Dir Yassin vs. Hebron massacre? Palestinian expulsion vs. Jewish expulsion from Arab countries?), Hell why not talk about the 1066 Granada massacre?
If you do not accept the Jewish people have a right to an inch of Palestine, discussion is useless. Any sort of deal will involve the acceptance that many Palestinians will not be able to get their land back, just as most of the 850,000 ‘Arab’ Jews had to give up their homes and estates in Arab countries, after living there for a millennia.
I know you guys like to think of those Jews as voluntarily and happily leaving everything to start anew in Israel, but that is just one of your ‘comfortable lies’, as you called them.
G
Khaled,
Actually what you are saying is:
The only "true" narrative is the Palestinan one, any Israeli telling a differnt story is a lier or a child.
Fine - tell yourself anything you want but don't expect the Israelis to discuss anything with you if you won't listen to anything.
Y.
pardon me but this is the parallel universe of the israeli circle jerk on sand monkeys blog! where israel can do no harm by minimizing and here we keep minimizing hamas' role in this tragedy!
Fifty-thousand Jews living among five hundred thousand Palestinians in 1925 had a dream of establishing a Jewish state and managed to achieve it. So, please do not presume that 10 million Palestinians refugees around the globe would easily accept the current facts. The Arab-Jews managed to find a home (Israel). On the other hand, the Palestinians living in Gaza on a small sieged poor peace of land while their land are only miles away.
From my own perceptive , if Israel has eased the economic situation in Gaza by opening the borders this could have made things a lot easier. If the people in Gaza have seen the fruits of the peace process by at least giving the Palestinians sovereignty over east-Jerusalem and the rest of the west bank and an independent Palestinian state then it would have been impossible to see Hamas elected in the first place. In such a case, you could have seen a strong Palestinian authority like the one in Ramallah (which doesn't even allow the raising of Hamas Flags in the streets of Ramallah at the time being.)
Khaled;
For once, we are in agreement.
In no way do I think the Jewish Exodus form Arab countries is a simple mirror image of the Palestinian one, nor am I 'hiding' behind it to avoid recognizing what happened to the 48' Palestinians.
I would like to point out something you casually mentioned:
Israel did welcome those Jews in, in fact tried everything to encourage them to come here instead of US/Europe. Except for kinship, this was done from purely selfish reasons: The influx boosted Israel as a country in so much more than just demographics; even though the short term economical and social price for doubling the population so quickly was huge (that debt is not fully paid even today).
If the Arab regimes had half a brain, they would see the Palestinian refugees as an opportunity rather that a burden to be hardly tolerated and only used as a ramming tool against Israel, a tactic which didn’t work and perpetuated them as refugees. Those people would at least have homes instead of refugee camps, and the host countries would be better for it, in more ways then one.
As for ‘Fruits of Peace’, I definitely agree with you there, but you should remember that that was the direction post Oslo - there were very large Industrial areas on the Gaza-Israel (at Erez-Crossing) and Gaza-WB borders, providing work for tens of thousands of Palestinians and yes, profitable for Israeli manufacturers who enjoyed the ’salary gap’ between the different territories. The gates were open then, there was exports form WB/Gaza into Israel (face it, we will remain your natural exporting destination). I am not saying everything was rosy and great but I for one believed things were moving in the right direction.
Those areas shut down after very numerous suicide attacks, bus & coffee shop bombing etc -> Israeli retaliation -> more attacks from Palestinians yada yada you know it as well as I do.
People (from the Israeli side) saw and see this pattern as proof that Palestinians, as a nation, see agreements as only tools for better strategic positioning in the never ending battle over *all* of Palestine. The willingness to compromise and give away “hard” assets like land and control for vague promises has dropped to *zero*, and this is even before I start counting our own religious extremists, far right-wing settlers, Jerusalem as a “holy grail” not be divided, etc’.
Palestinians simply cannot promise the same things they did before Oslo and failed to deliver. You have to offer more, something tangible, which can be used to leverage mainstream Israelis into believing that this round will be different.
I don’t what this tangible thing is, and I fear the Palestinians don’t either, nor are willing to offer it if they did know.
G
Yes, certainly a load of demagoguery Mohammed... and certainly not one of your better posts. From 'reasoned argument' perspective, you seem to be engaging in the same 'pseudo-arguments' that you're attempting to criticize. You've got some valid points of course, but they're clouded in the very same dust you were trying to blow away.
I see also that you've offered no step forward, nothing to 'promote peace' -- just further entrenching the dichotomy that each sides so fervently believes.
Rise above.
A mere goy AND infidel.
out of all your said points 8 seems to be the most disturbing!
I don't understand the israeli strikes in Gaza. For example, just right now the israeli F-16 which killed a leader in Hamas. They have killed together with him his innocent children. I am sure that the israeli TV doesn't show the video for such attacks. G, the images are very disturbing. Unfortunately, for your leadership "The end justifies the means".
Khaled;
The news that innocent children are getting killed is EXTREAMLY disturbing and enraging, whether the images are shown or not. To quote from the Jewish Talmud: "Not even the Devil can think of an appropriate revenge for a blood of a small child" - but isn't blood revenge and counter-revenge what brought us to where we are now?
As for images, I am not near a TV (I did check out Ynet.co.il) but I am sure they are extremely distressing as much as I am sure they are not being shown on Israeli TV. Note, though, that Israel has an un-written code against showing the pictures of killed people, especially children, both of our own as well as of others.
I don’t want to have the usual tit-for tat arguments while you are under the weight of such images, and I think I know how you feel. I have had a work-colleague and his whole family blow up a couple of years back (remember the Maxim restaurant bombing in Haifa?)
As for the end justifying the means, well, I am afraid it’s true for the leaderships of both sides, to a similar extent.
G
G, It is then your moral and ethical responibility to protest against the military operation which kills tens of innocent civilians.... It would be a shame on every free human being who could have done something to stop this agression against civilians and stood still.
It is time to mobilize the israeli left against this. Say NO to the state-terrorism practiced by the IDF at the time being.
If you fail to do something, I am sure two things will happen:
1- Taliban and AlQaeda will end up ruling the arabic public opinion
2- The Israeli Right and religious parties will gain more votes on the expense of the Israeli left.
Again, It is obvious that this military operation will fail. Hamas never backups up. It is a religiously motivated party with a WIDE "REALLY WIDE" user base.
I am happy to read that some consciousness and common human sense is still there in the israeli society.
Khaled;
The Israeli Left spent all of its "electoral credit" on the Oslo peace process. In any case guys like the protesters you linked too are very marginal. The Israeli left nowadays is focused on what is called "grass-root peace": getting Palestinians and Israelis to meet, initiating joint projects on the community level, that sort of stuff. Many believe this way maybe a new generation will grow up with less hatred. Can perhaps help on the Israeli-Palestinian/Jewish relations but not much more than that.
IDF state terrorism? No conscience or common sense? I can’t really agree with those labels. I see myself as having both, and yet I am Israeli and a Zionist, born and raised here, served in the IDF, etc’.
The mainstream Israeli doesn’t want to see Palestinian children dead or innocent people starved and humiliated. Polls even today indicate 75% of the Israeli (jewish) voters support a two-state solution. It’s getting there that is the problem, trust wise.
You see Israel and its people as monsters; don’t you see that it’s a mirror image from the other side?
…-Pictures of old Palestinian grandmas giving away candies because someone blew up some Israeli kids in a mall - Ahmedinijad promising to “Cure the Zionist cancer with radiation therapy” - Palestinian/Iranian/Arab rallies with the chanting and flag burning - The fourteen year old Palestinian caught at the crossing wearing a suicide belt and looking so small one could swear he was only ten - growing up with the stories of the Holocaust or any portion of Jewish history for the last two millennia-….
Now try and convince that average Israeli Joe that peace and trust are the way to go….
G
No, I don't see all the israeli people as monsters. I am permanent resident in "Israel", it is too hard to see everybody as monsters on a daily basis.Yet, I see the IDF actions in Gaza strip as barbaric.
From my own opinion, at the time of War, all the israeli public opinion stand behind the IDF. But you have to understand that these military commentators that appear on TV are liars. When Ehud Yeari, Tzvika Yehakzeli or Roni Daniel appear on TV and say that the army will not strike in case they knew that there are children in the HOUSE. This is nothing But Complete Bullshit. The Shabak שב"כknows very well who is residing in the house and who isn't. I have lived in the west Bank for a long period in my life and have seen the barbaric actions being committed by Maagav all over there. I hope that you stayed in your base while serving in the IDF and didn't take part in any crimes here.
Unfortunately, I don't see the urgance or the importance of peace for you in your posts. Do you think that the arabs in the neighbouring arab countries are happy with the peace treaties with Israel. As long as they see, these horrific images on Aljazeera and as long as you don't give the palestinian people some of their rights you will end up finding these countries toppling their regimes and creating multiple hizbullahs against Israel.
You'd better work harder for peace. You are living on the stronger side. Enough is Enough.
Reb Barry: I disagree with the word ‘response’ - this attack is passed as a response but is hardly one. Whether we look at the timeline of the buildup to the war, or at the Gaza/Israel situation since (insert any date you want :), it’s more like more of the same - just on a bigger scale.
Oh, and - of course it’s immoral to kill civilians! Actually I think it’s immoral to kill, full stop! See, we agree!
G, Khaled: Hello there! Always a pleasure to read your discussions..
Ah, but there is always further aggravation. There are no upper limits for grief...
On victimhood: Obviously everyone is fighting for the number 1 spot on the podium. The number of times I’ve read that “2/3 of the children of Sderot suffer from PTSD and hence we need to defend their childhood” etc etc - that’s very much victimization!
* On the right-wing dominance on the Israeli blogosphere/public debate: well, two factors are at play here.
First, the Israeli English-speaking blogosphere is overall to the right of the Israeli society. For some reason, Anglo-Saxons countries produce a disproportionately large number of wackos/settlers who love to go settle in “Judea and Samaria” and walk around with guns looking for the next "Pali" to shoot.
Second, the whole of the Israeli society has shifted right. Look at the power struggle: It’s a (far?) right party (Likud) vs. a Centre-right party (Kadima, itself an offshoot of Likud). Heck, even Meretz approved of this war (for the first 3 days).
Why the hell doesnt egypt open its borders to the palestinian needs for supplies? How can arabs blame israel to block gaza (from where rockets fly on a daily base) when they block it themselves (though they are not attacked from there)?
I don't know, Anon. I do agree that they should open the borders, though, for reasons different than yours obviously.
What I can tell you is this:
- the control of the border is a strange arrangement by which the border crossing is managed by the Palestinians, the Europeans, the Egyptians, with the supervision/agreement of the Israelis and the Quartet (US, EU, Russia, UN). As such, the number of people who need to agree - or who can refuse - opening the border makes it basically closed most of the time.
Add to it that Hamas closes the border at times - including (source in Arabic) to wounded Palestinians to get treated in Egypt.
So, why? I don't know. But we should open it though.
Well, if you claim that you should open it though, why do you blame Israel for not opening it? Israel seems to be the only country in the world that is made responsible for not feeding an enemy who wants nothing but Israels Destruction.
I would even try to follow these arguments if there werent anybody else who blocks gasa. But there IS anybody else.
Because it's not israel's border that we're requesting to open: it's Gaza's. Nuance, you say? Oh heck no.
The entry of humanitarian aid is not a 'choice' to be granted by Israel or not at the whim of some army general who will decide based on whether he got laid that morning or not. It's an OBLIGATION by international law. Israel doesn't get to choose.
Go to the map, Anon. There's 1 border crossing with Egypt, 6 with Israel. (no Egyptian sovereignty over Kerem Shalom).
Now, as I check, Rafah has actually been opened and used for some humanitarian assistance, which has landed in Al-Arish airport (in Egypt).
However:
- Rafah doesn't have half the shipping capacity that Erez or Karni have.
- Israel is ALSO in control of Rafah, which doesn't open without its approval or, let's cut the diplomacy short, the US as the Big Guy in the Quartet.
Now I think that Egypt should forcefully open it regardless of Israel's desires. Egypt however has this bad tendency - unheard of in Israel - to abide by the agreements in signed.
No, Anon. There isn't anybody else blocking Israel.
(I suggest you check out Al-Jazeera English on that subject. As Egypt was widely criticised (for 'collusion with Israel!') over the past week, they've got some interesting analysis on the topic).
Hey Mohammed- it's Laura B (from ulpan!)
As sad as I am about everything happening now, and however much I agree with most of your point, I think you're missing something with point number 5. One major reason that there is so little loss of life and property due to the rockets hitting Israel is because of the infrastructure set up to protect people- every house, school and playground has sirens and bomb shelters nearby, and schools are shut down in the south to avoid children having to travel outside. And of course given the infinitely greater funding that Israeli businesses and schools have, many are built in a more sturdy way so that they can withstand some attacks. So although this doesn't mean that the damage between Gaza and Israel should be equated, it provides some important background. In the meantime, thank you for listing your responses to these oft-repeated excuses... in my "yeshiva" program, we pray for the innocent Gazans who are killed and injured every day at mincha (afternoon prayers).
-Laura
Laura! How great to hear from you!
Well, glad to know that someone out there is still praying. Many - including myself - are losing faith..
You are right. It is correct that the infra in Israel is far superior - and this has indeed averted many an unnecessary death. And that's truly great. I wish the territories - and indeed, Arab villages in Israel - would have similar infra.. or at least basic shelters.
In terms of infra, in Gaza, people these days sleep in the basement for those who have one; those who don't stay in the central room. They have to keep the windows open so they don't shatter because of the blast waves. Etc.
No one wishes for the damage to be equated. Or rather, if they were equated in that LITTLE damage occurs everywhere, that would be nice too. :)
I'm joining you in prayers today. What time is the mincha? :)
Be well,
mo.
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